From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Mar 30 12:32:14 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LoNDS-0006dX-EG for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:32:14 -0700 Received: from mail-gx0-f176.google.com ([209.85.217.176]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LoNDQ-0006by-3T for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:32:14 -0700 Received: by gxk24 with SMTP id 24so4561923gxk.10 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:32:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xmYTeqWOis4GLfZGYYQEIEej5EsIlEsF/wmwmQ5e00w=; b=R3GjvwSmFfQWrGCYAR9yXURn6J5KGWf3aO/+C0qDFTtgbSj0z3tODMgbZuhae1Iq5z ahXEonkNtyptgvAvIyAytacyqJWBbiAB7cqps7hYWVqP4QSGiubrVb8c23S0iHWF5XaZ yf04t29N0q1fmGW9tKAuOY7GBQ3Dexapi1X7k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=N5jfOCKFaqZDEHUcDwDAzCQMrfmrfm/KWwBoU1xKwnXl6fa9lJMukR3yzxrbSef7HJ evRCpqW4iBGAykRmQReelHfKojkqQ8BR0F5BPUj08mOV8j9BY3dhr3pFj5UJSA6cHwof v1OQGab3Y0KfbksqF/M5qHYpFEbX5+Z/DmMz4= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37df8ab60903300557l1beb0e02ya3088dbe0547736@mail.gmail.com> References: <37df8ab60903300557l1beb0e02ya3088dbe0547736@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:30:44 -0400 Received: by 10.100.58.18 with SMTP id g18mr4311905ana.26.1238441525856; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: does conlanging change your sense of reality? From: Brett Williams To: Constructed Languages List Cc: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 15413 X-Approved-By: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list (CCed to the lojban-list, since I thought they might want to see what I had to say here.) On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:57 AM, RoseRose wrote: > I'm personally of the Whorfian persuasion that different languages "cause" > different forms of thinking and different thoughts therefore arise.  Having > been so deeply engaged with Glide for 10 years, I've noticed I parse the > world differently--see process, for instance, more foregrounded than things, > flow more than form.  This is of course very subjective and not all that > easy to describe.  I am curious if anyone else sees effects in your > reality-sense that you attribute to your conlanging activities in any way? I've thought about this some over the years that I've studied Lojban, since Sapir-Whorf is an important part of Lojban's history and mythology. I'm not sure exactly how Lojban was supposed to change how I think, and it's always difficult in life of course to tell one thread of cause from another, but I do think I might have a sense of some kind of effect that it's had on me. It affects most strongly of course how I think and feel about communication. It's my sense that the cultural differences in communication between Lojbanistan and the outside world are at least as important as the linguistic differences. Lojban is this very modular, tinker-toy-type language, where you can basically put whatever you want in a sentence by attaching things to the sides of other things. But it would be perfectly possible to use that structure to build ordinary sentences, restrained by conventional forms and meanings. There is also an exploratory, creative attitude in the way Lojban is used which feels to me essential in how it's changed my thought. I'll give an example which I think tells a lot about Lojban culture. I kind of feel like I'm revealing a secret, in a way-- I mean it's not secret at all, it's openly logged all the time in fact, but it's an open secret because it's encoded into a strange cypheric creature called a "lujvo". :) The lujvo I'm thinking of is "cinsne", which is made from "cin" for "cinse", to be sexual, and "sne" for "senva", to dream, and means to have a wet dream. It is increasingly common & traditional to say to someone who is heading off to bed from Lojbanistan: "ko cinsne" -- Have a wet dream! (It's meant somewhat in jest, but not haha-funny, & it comes from a long shared strange Lojbanic sense of humor and absurdity.) So there has been some effect on my thinking from using a language that's so modular, adjustable, free, structural. But there's been at least as much change in how I think from the cultural experience of living part of my life in a linguistic community that's there mostly for the purpose of exploring language itself, and with a language on their tongues and fingertips to bend to their whims and wills. Loglan and Middle Lojban were similar to today's Lojban grammatically, but I think provoked a very different experience in those who related to them. I would expect that the next generation's Lojban, which is growing out of the conversations and stories and songs and translations of today, will have yet again an entirely different effect on those who learn it. I suppose the main conclusion my studies of Lojban have driven me to about Sapir-Whorf is that language is not just a tool used by a society, but a vessel for much of the knowledge and social structure of a society. It's that hidden dimension of language which I believe is most powerful in structuring how we think, act and live. <3, mungojelly AKA la stela selckiku To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.