From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Jun 04 09:12:29 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 04 Jun 2009 09:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MCFYL-0003yR-7e for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 09:12:29 -0700 Received: from web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.119]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MCFYH-0003y8-El for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 09:12:28 -0700 Received: (qmail 10898 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Jun 2009 16:12:18 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1244131938; bh=bO+xN/YGNxZUmfZN6FXGnL1/YIGn3A50KOGndouIyHQ=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=qlLFwOMVIz6vvKu5jlVtRDNBg2T+UrEOT3X3qMioVit9hC8Lb3VzPQz/HV3cItuw7hIYbhYsqHxVf+mDbd6aPjAajIiE3nonuvfapj3p3/Igyl4MYHz9jeKX84NHUKlbCk8cxo9G1sEMOnc1WJt0k6txBlqbYrDSRxs14t0NVxM= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=LdCJggLshiR16pV+vZMShIZqTnKryf5x0M7kcFzlciWToRkjEtMECdfgqccr0kP1hBck1+9rK4In37BSzm2H9CW/uUN6aaLfdwV0SvvqnvaxSARtLWQs6IxYAIhiNF34oG40XCih0vT02mTK9aSWtjdVGgEgXdrrbQ2lBY20fLQ=; Message-ID: <646223.6310.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: Ly2kQqUVM1lMxMU5c3bUxliUKp6EY9XRCVvZ_SIV733ED.8A78g4Ju63t0Rb.tNqqewqahIf_NBL5BWdAyPP5Obxq4asdtRcIDFCvSiExA7J4SwePb_l0w.6YUr48xOx1uPg5KPtruYiVGil8hk1.9X38XbJeCXCS1rvWkOO7k_Rk6xFuXnVqqul3GBOW8pS2CHbiARH8ZB2z33ZjFwN4G0OAnjMro76hoyxsoFsOFYYkMzWX9PyW.PLu5XLOXDXduhFCDYpSV8XmMpO5y0V59upakDT1s2jXOWn5wMVjc5zBdoOWTBiDCIyhvKnECQIY0q5d4gY58B7w7kqLrat7hU- Received: from [24.207.224.145] by web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 09:12:18 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/1277.43 YahooMailWebService/0.7.289.10 References: <5715b9300906010628l341442ear1f5c7e4a3e5f1f8e@mail.gmail.com> <489051.81750.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <96f789a60906040829s44f298aev4d2b31593a7ec005@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 09:12:18 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: sel ter vel xel To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <96f789a60906040829s44f298aev4d2b31593a7ec005@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 15646 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list LoCCan3 is the shadowy third version of "the logical language" (the CC means "two consonants to be named later"). It exists, if at all, as a list of "corrections" to "mistakes" in the first two verisons (the list for Loglan, and probably Lojban, are out of date). Feel free to add your own. The clump problem has been noted since at least 1960 on intelligibility grounds (which probably embraces learnabilty as well). Your idea wouldn't help much except to guarantee that all the possible similarities got in (with differentiation only in the second syllable, if at all). The inconsistent assignment of similar relations to different places -- and indeed, any rationale for what relations go where -- goes back to the original prospectus for Loglan, where JCB proposed a frequency test. Which was, of course, never actually carried out, since it is often hard to see what would count as evidence and where to get it. ----- Original Message ---- From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-list@lojban.org Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2009 10:29:02 AM Subject: [lojban] Re: sel ter vel xel On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 11:22 AM, John E Clifford wrote: > OK, I'll put this in the file for LoCCan3. It will pretty much kill the > 'easy to learn' 'feature' of the present system, but -- absent a test -- no > one seems to have believed that anyhow. I think this is the first > suggestion about phonolgy -- and immediately suggests the need to revise the > lujvo rules; any suggestions? > I'm sure I haven't a clue what "LoCCan3" is, and I have REALLY no desire to throw away all the aging brain cells I've already invested in learning lojban, but one of the phonological problems I've always had learning lojban is the of all the theoretical vastness of the gismu space, there is severe "clumping" in some areas, and other areas are completely unused. For example, there is ganra/grana/garna/gerna, xrani/xanri, cernba/cinba, tsina/tsani/tinsa, tinsa/rinsa/risna, racli/ralci, etc. etc. but not a single gismu with a pattern of *f*j* *p*v* *v*v* *x*v* *z*x* or *z*z*, nor any gismu using any of more than 470 theoretically possible consonantal triples (in ANY order) such as {d,f,z} {d,s,z} {d,p,t}, {l,l,m}, {s,t,v} I know that this is driven by the gismu derivation paradigm, but I think any "reimagining" of lojban should give reasonable weight to making the phonologic separation between any two gismu as far apart as possible. This will help in keeping the two words separate in one's mind. (The other problem I've had, in learning the deep gismu list, is the inconsistency. For example while some things have source/location, some have composition (and I can see that, and don't necessarily have a problem with that), and some have both source and composition, those latter all have source first, then composition, EXCEPT rokci. While most things that have a to and from argument have it in the order "to" and "from", there are a few exceptions (ex. rinci and sputu). While most body parts that have three places have the body in x3, some don't, such as nazbi (possibly forgiveable, as the subpart is there), kerfa, rango (but compare cigla). Some measurements have subunits before the "by standard" piece, some after, etc. I know this has all been discussed elsewhere.) --gejyspa To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.