From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Jun 04 18:44:58 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MCOUM-0006tl-19 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:44:58 -0700 Received: from mail-fx0-f219.google.com ([209.85.220.219]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MCOUI-0006tH-Ox for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:44:57 -0700 Received: by fxm19 with SMTP id 19so1071605fxm.34 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:44:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=hj6fETTIno+UhMyoFQVH95YYvXRb4qi4JuTFhBue8wM=; b=gM0mCrC3GLDD8edtclsis5+XEuFqyvdI0tw4jj4vZ4Rf88Nfeokq2IojA0Kc9Ds6WH +WQ05Fh9y/fDIrnItohtqFsxccC4Zvbg1ZFQLidM1f88De1AitLRoEeXW2L3N1zETigB JZ4q1f1Nw4X4XWSsSXxtYPmTV65i7snl35zUw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=neEIQs9HvYn2PyVeLnt7mWL+U8LHVAwi4oaxXRAOKA2VWz0vekASoJtrf+PjjNNBUe jOzj9VvjAW065ZDWmZS8DiDntrpuTJv/lB0zWonSfNgh4h70HkvPZS0IaoAUpmX5+MYx cc6/RI0mEYIuK10LsL2A+u3uTqdclYCOjMGnE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.114.207 with SMTP id f15mr1678398faq.90.1244166288333; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:44:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <96f789a60906040829s44f298aev4d2b31593a7ec005@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9300906010628l341442ear1f5c7e4a3e5f1f8e@mail.gmail.com> <489051.81750.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <96f789a60906040829s44f298aev4d2b31593a7ec005@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 04:44:48 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: sel ter vel xel From: Adam Raizen To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e68dbd97a88239046b9009a5 X-archive-position: 15649 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: adam.raizen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0016e68dbd97a88239046b9009a5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 18:29, Michael Turniansky wrote: > (The other problem I've had, in learning the deep gismu list, is > the inconsistency. For example while some things have > source/location, some have composition (and I can see that, and don't > necessarily have a problem with that), and some have both source and > composition, those latter all have source first, then composition, > EXCEPT rokci. While most things that have a to and from argument have > it in the order "to" and "from", there are a few exceptions (ex. rinci > and sputu). While most body parts that have three places have the > body in x3, some don't, such as nazbi (possibly forgiveable, as the > subpart is there), kerfa, rango (but compare cigla). Some > measurements have subunits before the "by standard" piece, some after, > etc. I know this has all been discussed elsewhere.) > This is my other major pet-peeve with Lojban as it currently stands, making essentially unlearnable (at least correctly). Gismu places should be zealously cropped to contain only those places which are absolutely essential in casual conversation, and then cropped some more, no matter how necessary someone argues that they are logically or philosophically. No gismu should have more than 3 places. "By standard" places are going to be used approximately 1/1000 (wild guess) of the time that a gismu that has them is used (not to mention 'by epistemology', which will only be used in philosophical discussions conducted in Lojban). That is not anywhere near frequent enough for it to be retained in a living language. -- Adam Raizen Got sente? --0016e68dbd97a88239046b9009a5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 18:29, M= ichael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 (The other problem I've had, in learning the deep gismu list, i= s
the inconsistency. =C2=A0 For example while some things have
source/location, some have composition (and I can see that, and don't necessarily have a problem with that), and some have both source and
composition, those latter all have source first, then composition,
EXCEPT rokci. =C2=A0While most things that have a to and from argument have=
it in the order "to" and "from", there are a few except= ions (ex. rinci
and sputu). =C2=A0While most body parts that have three places have the
body in x3, some don't, such as nazbi (possibly forgiveable, as the
subpart is there), kerfa, =C2=A0rango (but compare cigla). =C2=A0Some
measurements have subunits before the "by standard" piece, some a= fter,
etc. =C2=A0I know this has all been discussed elsewhere.)
=C2=A0
This is my other major pet-peeve with L= ojban as it currently stands, making essentially unlearnable (at least corr= ectly). Gismu places should be zealously cropped to contain only those plac= es which are absolutely essential in casual conversation, and then cropped = some more, no matter how necessary someone argues that they are logically o= r philosophically. No gismu should have more than 3 places. "By standa= rd" places are going to be used approximately 1/1000 (wild guess) of t= he time that a gismu that has them is used (not to mention 'by epistemo= logy', which will only be used in philosophical discussions conducted i= n Lojban). That is not anywhere near frequent enough for it to be retained = in a living language.

--
Adam Raizen <adam.ra= izen@gmail.com>
Got sente?
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