From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jul 21 04:12:13 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MTDGX-00058d-FA for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:12:13 -0700 Received: from eastrmmtao103.cox.net ([68.230.240.9]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MTDGT-000587-5H for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:12:12 -0700 Received: from eastrmimpo03.cox.net ([68.1.16.126]) by eastrmmtao103.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090721111201.OTBM12338.eastrmmtao103.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:12:01 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([70.187.235.94]) by eastrmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id JbC21c00322sj6m02bC2br; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:12:02 -0400 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=CN93ze_v45IA:10 a=yONpI44uFnPxRegpPKgA:9 a=FLNxc3isQA0Mm1yr4dwA:7 a=rXv86NpiMo3TJQl4KllBQ1ekMzkA:4 a=rMDN9wDg6ZbLAYOk:21 a=J_jkZCxUaFHtVJ32:21 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4A65A282.7090808@lojban.org> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:12:02 -0400 From: Bob LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Philosophical differences. References: <126025.43169.qm@web50408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <126025.43169.qm@web50408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 1. vlagi > > It does not make sense to have a word which specifically refers to the > external female genitalia when we have "plibu". X-archive-position: 15788 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list vlagi refers to a specific part of the female genitalia. >fetplibu and nakplibu are perfectly adequate, in my opinion, Then use them. No one is stopping you. You want to eliminate a gismu that has been around for a couple of decades (though it probably hasn't see a lot of use). The only plausible justification for such an elimination is absolute non-use over an extended period of time while a different word is used instead. We went through this before, with the elimination of gumri for mushroom. Almost 20 years later, I still sometimes come up with gumri when I am searching for the right word. In any event, it would take a formal change to the language definition, and it simply isn't important enough to be worth considering, when we cannot get through the byfy process with the regular grammar. > for referring to the respective > genitalia of either sex. We have plibu, ganti, and pinji, which are all > non-gender-specific until we make a lujvo/tanru out of them, so we ought > to be consistent. We never attempted to have such a level of consistency in the gismu. Nice when possible and convenient because it makes things easier to memorize. > 2. xagji > > I've had this discussion at great length with people in the chat, over > and over again, until everybody pretty much wanted me to go die in a > fire. There is absolutely no way to describe "sleepy", and while my > personal usage of the word may differ from others, it doesn't change the > lack of such a concept in Lojban. tatpi means tired, as in physically > fatigued, and one must rest a moment before continuing any activities. > xagji means one is hungry, and must eat before continuing any > activities. taske means one is thirsty, and must drink before continuing > activities. None of these imply need, as there are plenty of people that > get hungry without needing to eat, there are plenty of people that get > thirsty without needing to drink, etc. This also does not imply desire > as there are plenty of people that desire to eat regardless of hunger. > Keeping this in mind, how do we express that one is sleepy? One does not > necessarily need sleep, as outlined in previous examples related to > food/drink/rest/etc., and one does not necessarily desire sleep, as also > outlined in previous examples. Therefore, we have several concepts that > have a unique value in common, which I could inadequately describe as an > intrinsic physical need, separate from the desires of the mind, and > separate from what constitutes actual need. I would like either of the > following to happen: two new gismu be created to encompass > 'sleep-hunger' (sleepiness) and 'sex-hunger'(there is no non-slang word > in English), which still leaves room for things like air-hunger (again, > no English word), exercise-hunger, and possibly even something like > entertainment-hunger (boredom, I suppose) All of those sound like perfectly reasonable lujvo based on xagji. Use them and define them in jbovlaste. The language was intended to be used to create metaphorical lujvo as well as strictly compositional ones - this was made explicit for the body-part and animal and substance gismu. >OR that the meaning of xagji > be changed to reflect this concept, It doesn't need to be changed. You can make a lujvo that is based on a metaphorical extension of a gismu. A tanru might be more problematical if there are places that make no sense, but a lujvo can have any place structure concoctable, not merely the compositional jvajvo formulations. > None of these imply an active and concious desire, The gismu does not necessarily imply an active and conscious desire. It covers anything in the broad spectrum of things that might be labeled "desire", including the tense based formulations of intermittent, anticipatory, potential etc. > 3. Cultural gismu. > > Just fix it already. There is no plausible "fix". > 4. Computer words. > > Face it, we're pretty much all huge nerds. We need words for "window", > "website", "internet", "software", "hardware", and various other things. Half of which weren't useful 20 years ago, and half of which will be obsolete 20 years from now. Make a borrowing if you want a word and cannot come up with a satisfactory lujvo. Look at what other languages have done for the concept, and mimic them. > We have computer in a broad sense. > and monitor actually, when added, we were thinking more in terms of a TV screen. > but not much else, and if we are to put > this language into full use as quickly as possible, I see this as a dire > necessity over most anything else. There are NO word issues which are "dire". It is simply too easy to make lujvo and fu'ivla. > So those are my philosophical problems with modern Lojban. > (Before you bite at problem number 2, plenty of people have already > pointed out, as the devil's advocate, that I may be making a wholly > unnecessary distinction that can be covered by need/desire, but this > brings culture into play, and this concept may be wholly unique to my > own personal culture. In my own concept of the universe, needing to eat, > wanting to eat, and being hungry are different concepts.) So? if you need a word and it isn't there, make one up, use it, and define it. But in lujvo and fu'ivla space, not in gismu space. We've only frozen 1300-odd words. There are billions more that are not subject to baselining, but require someone to make them up, use them, and define them. lojbab To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.