From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Aug 25 06:50:49 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 25 Aug 2009 06:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MfwQB-0004NP-VQ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 06:50:48 -0700 Received: from mail-ew0-f216.google.com ([209.85.219.216]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MfwQ4-0004MB-Nd for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 06:50:47 -0700 Received: by ewy12 with SMTP id 12so3568917ewy.0 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 06:50:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=N8RH0FqwFH9sTo26cMNGsNmckfBwMvvr809SWWWv9Rk=; b=CSkAmimRVvAHH4Q3Utlf34sqg9zrVOWrVwdzlOp0f0cVe5AS8e0SLZRVWo1SfbK7fD hqD2HZDcWyLj1ZrbUJzTTDqcfmV6rCBITfee2NyD8vS+euYJETqULB8zFRpKJPDB6MVR e2rnprtKT8v7PZbYNA0EulfNRNdpxE+/k3OPc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=w3W3oywZvv/sZ+UAfKXshO4S4/FyXqM7Xe7BH9+wKrwIKfrl3sLbjBRR7gHaJ6zIPC yhlIclT/bEHlDTYFRMad7uOvovw9B6rvzf7EHao9Lm6mE1LGrScpbdELHwO5FIhMHcDH ppNk6DJ3pAVjyH2ie0HQsmsZkGonrloTti1/E= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.210.58.12 with SMTP id g12mr6318134eba.66.1251208233702; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 06:50:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5715b9300908242154t3719840bv34a35548e0c7df85@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9300908240824n448315ccj221a74bdf88e79e7@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9300908241123y78c25648q324e24f372608a42@mail.gmail.com> <4BD12EB8-CEC5-4EE4-B43C-B9CDB034455C@georgetown.edu> <5715b9300908242154t3719840bv34a35548e0c7df85@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 14:50:32 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: Fwd: lojban and raising a child bi-lingual From: james riley To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c10164f74350471f79e22 X-archive-position: 16018 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jimr1603@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0015174c10164f74350471f79e22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I started translation of a children's book into lojban. Public domain, so there's no copyright issues. It needs some work, and I don't think I'll be the person to do it. Here's the url http://cukta.bravehost.com/index.html 2009/8/25 Luke Bergen > mi pensi lo du'u ro do pe'i nelci ti > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: d'Armond Speers > Date: Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM > Subject: Re: lojban and raising a child bi-lingual > To: Luke Bergen > > > > Hi Luke, > > I know what you mean about people not answering. Oh well. The problem > with me is getting me to shut up. :) > > Please feel free to forward my e-mail to anyone you like. There is at > least one person I know of who was proficient in both Klingon and Lojban. > (I know he is fluent in Klingon, but I cannot judge his proficiency in > Lojban). If Mark Shoulson is on your list, he also knows a lot about Alec, > and has met him a few times. > > If any questions for me come up through your discussion, feel free to > forward them on. > > Oh, the other thing I should have mentioned in my previous reply, is that > you should be fairly thick-skinned to do something like this. I may have > gotten more heat because people are familiar with the "bad guy" status of > Klingons, but just the idea of raising a child to speak a constructed > language may raise people's ire. I got all kinds of criticism, all of it > ridiculous. And a fair amount of mocking. (My favorite mocking came from > Howard Stern, which put William Shatner in the position of defending me, > which was a hoot!). > > Regards, > > --d'Armond > > On Aug 24, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > > Thanks for your reply! I honestly only half expected one. Whenever I have > emailed people that I don't know in the past the email address has either > become old and un-used or they just don't reply for one reason or another. > > I appreciate the advice. Part of the reason I looked you up now is because > I have a couple of years to prepare. I'll take your advice and learn as > much vocabulary as possible in that time. > > The lojban community actually is fairly large and there have been quite a > few works translated thus far. It is a rather small community compared to > natlang communities but hopefully things like video-conferencing etc... will > help me expose my kids to other speakers even if only a little bit. > > After I mentioned my intentions with my kids we (the folks in the lojban > irc channel and mailing list) started wondering about your endeavors to > teach Alec Klingon. Would you mind if I forwarded your response on to the > lojban mailing list? I'm sure they would find it fascinating as several of > them also speak klingon (although I do not). > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 12:08 PM, d'Armond Speers wrote: > >> >> Hi Luke, thanks for writing! >> >> I spoke to Alec using only Klingon from the time he was born, until he was >> almost 3 years. While he was clearly understanding me and starting to speak >> a little, ultimately it was unsuccessful. I can give you the reasons why I >> think I failed, and you can go from there. >> >> The first problem I encountered was vocabulary. Klingon has lots of words >> for things like shuttlecraft, phaser, transporter ionization unit, but not a >> lot of words that are practical on a daily basis with a baby / toddler. The >> most immediate things are words like diaper, crib, bottle, milk, potty, >> bath, and so on. I found myself improvising in a lot of cases, and it would >> have been better if I had been more prepared. When Alec was about 2 years >> old, a new book came out with a lot of new vocabulary, and all of a sudden >> we had words for things that we didn't have before, like "table", "window", >> and so on. On the one hand that helped, but it also meant that I had to >> change some words I had been using, which was confusing (both for him and >> me). The better prepared you are with vocabulary, the better. >> >> The second main problem was that I was the only one in his environment who >> spoke Klingon. One time I had a friend visit who spoke Klingon and Alec was >> enthralled. But at the time he was still too young to take advantage of it, >> and the visit was short, only a day. The more practical, day-to-day >> exposure to as many speakers as possible that you can get, the better. >> >> Another aspect of this is that speaking Klingon was an extra, unnecessary >> effort for him. It was obvious that I also speak English, as I spoke it >> with my wife and everyone else, except him. In studies of bilingualism, the >> kids who tend to achieve fluency in multiple languages didn't have a choice, >> such as grandparents who only spoke a different language than the main >> language of the community or household. If your wife can speak Lojban, you >> can make Lojban the language of the household. >> >> Some things that worked: >> >> We played a game where I would name body parts and he would point to them. >> {nuqDaq 'oH ghItlhlIj'e'?} ("where's your nose?"), {nuqDaq 'oH >> qevpobwIj'e'?"} ("where's my cheek"). This is a pretty simple game, easy to >> learn and play, and it sets up a good sentence pattern for later >> interactions ("where's your/my/his XX?") >> >> Every night at bedtime, as part of his daily routine, we would sing a >> "lullaby" in Klingon, the Klingon Imperial Anthem {taHjaj wo'}. (I don't >> think the composer ever thought it would be used as a lullaby!) He got so >> good at this, he was better at 2-1/2 than most adult speakers of the >> language, due to the daily practice. Pick (or translate) something that can >> be done every day. Doesn't have to be a bedtime thing, just so long as it >> becomes a daily routine. At first it should not change, it should be the >> same thing every day, but later you can start to change it. Make it fun. >> >> I spoke Klingon with Alec everywhere: at the store, in the park, in the >> house, etc. It didn't matter whether there were other people around and if >> they gave me strange looks. Most people don't recognize Klingon for what it >> is, they just assumed it was some other language they didn't know. You >> don't need to explain yourself to anyone, just have fun with it. In some >> cases it may be easier NOT to explain what you're doing! Fewer people know >> of Lojban than Klingon, so you'll find yourself answering lots of the same >> questions over again. You might print out a little business card-sized note >> that you can hand to people who are truly curious, with answers to common >> questions and a link to a website. This can save your sanity. >> >> Just before Alec was 3 years old I stopped, because he was starting to >> resist. I could see that he was becoming unhappy, and this wasn't worth it >> to me. Especially as your child becomes more vocal and communicative, pay >> careful attention to their attitude and behavior. You'll have to decide for >> yourself how far you want to take it and how hard you want to try, but don't >> overdo it. If it works, great, but if not, don't force it. >> >> At the very least, document what you're doing, the vocabulary you use, and >> all the progress you make. You'll be asked about this for years to come, >> especially if you're successful. :) If there's an active community of >> Lojbanists (sorry, don't know much about it), enlist their help with any >> challenges you face (how DO you say "dirty diaper" in Lojban?). Anyone else >> raise their kids speaking Lojban, or who have made Lojban the language of >> their household? Since you've got a few years to prepare, you can translate >> a collection of children's books, to have ready. Most first readers are >> more about the pictures and have simple words and phrases; it's a great >> place to start. >> >> Hope this is helpful. I know it's a few years off, but please feel free >> to keep in touch and let me know how it's going! >> >> --d'Armond >> >> On Aug 24, 2009, at 9:24 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: >> >> Hello Dr. Speers, I'm a new/intermediate speaker of the constructed >> language Lojban (http://www.lojban.org) and am planning on trying to have >> kids with my wife in a few years. I started toying with the idea of trying >> to raise our future children bi-lingual lojban-english by my speaking only >> lojban and my wife only speaking english when I heard about your endeavors >> to raise Alec bi-lingual Klingon-English using a similar method. >> >> I was just wondering if you have any advice/precautions given your >> experiences with Alec in this area. >> >> >> d'Armond Speers, Ph.D. >> speersd@georgetown.edu >> >> >> >> >> > > d'Armond Speers, Ph.D. > speersd@georgetown.edu > > > > > > --0015174c10164f74350471f79e22 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I started translation of a children's book into lojban. Public domain, = so there's no copyright issues. It needs some work, and I don't thi= nk I'll be the person to do it. Here's the url http://cukta.bravehost.com/index.html

2009/8/25 Luke Bergen <= lukeabergen@gmail.com>
mi pensi lo du'u ro do pe'i nelci ti

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: d'Armond Speers <speersd@georgetown.edu>
Date: Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: lojban and raising a ch= ild bi-lingual
To: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>


Hi Luke,

I know what you mean about people no= t answering. =A0Oh well. =A0The problem with me is getting me to shut up. = =A0:)

Please feel free to forward my e-mail to any= one you like. =A0There is at least one person I know of who was proficient = in both Klingon and Lojban. =A0(I know he is fluent in Klingon, but I canno= t judge his proficiency in Lojban). =A0If Mark Shoulson is on your list, he= also knows a lot about Alec, and has met him a few times.

If any questions for me come up through your discussion= , feel free to forward them on. =A0

Oh, the other = thing I should have mentioned in my previous reply, is that you should be f= airly thick-skinned to do something like this. =A0I may have gotten more he= at because people are familiar with the "bad guy" status of Kling= ons, but just the idea of raising a child to speak a constructed language m= ay raise people's ire. =A0I got all kinds of criticism, all of it ridic= ulous. =A0And a fair amount of mocking. =A0(My favorite mocking came from H= oward Stern, which put William Shatner in the position of defending me, whi= ch was a hoot!).

Regards,

--d'Armond

On Aug 24,= 2009, at 12:23 PM, Luke Bergen wrote:

Thanks for your reply!=A0 I honestly only half expected one.=A0 Whenever I = have emailed people that I don't know in the past the email address has= either become old and un-used or they just don't reply for one reason = or another.

I appreciate the advice.=A0 Part of the reason I looked you up now is = because I have a couple of years to prepare.=A0 I'll take your advice a= nd learn as much vocabulary as possible in that time.

The lojban co= mmunity actually is fairly large and there have been quite a few works tran= slated thus far.=A0 It is a rather small community compared to natlang comm= unities but hopefully things like video-conferencing etc... will help me ex= pose my kids to other speakers even if only a little bit.

After I mentioned my intentions with my kids we (the folks in the lojb= an irc channel and mailing list) started wondering about your endeavors to = teach Alec Klingon.=A0 Would you mind if I forwarded your response on to th= e lojban mailing list?=A0 I'm sure they would find it fascinating as se= veral of them also speak klingon (although I do not).

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 12:08 PM, d'Arm= ond Speers <speersd@georgetown.edu> wrote:

Hi Luke, thanks for writing!

=
I spoke to Alec using only Klingon from the time he was born, until he= was almost 3 years. =A0While he was clearly understanding me and starting = to speak a little, ultimately it was unsuccessful. =A0I can give you the re= asons why I think I failed, and you can go from there.

The first problem I encountered was vocabulary. =A0Kli= ngon has lots of words for things like shuttlecraft, phaser, transporter io= nization unit, but not a lot of words that are practical on a daily basis w= ith a baby / toddler. =A0The most immediate things are words like diaper, c= rib, bottle, milk, potty, bath, and so on. =A0I found myself improvising in= a lot of cases, and it would have been better if I had been more prepared.= =A0When Alec was about 2 years old, a new book came out with a lot of new = vocabulary, and all of a sudden we had words for things that we didn't = have before, like "table", "window", and so on. =A0On t= he one hand that helped, but it also meant that I had to change some words = I had been using, which was confusing (both for him and me). =A0The better = prepared you are with vocabulary, the better.

The second main problem was that I was the only one in= his environment who spoke Klingon. =A0One time I had a friend visit who sp= oke Klingon and Alec was enthralled. =A0But at the time he was still too yo= ung to take advantage of it, and the visit was short, only a day. =A0The mo= re practical, day-to-day exposure to as many speakers as possible that you = can get, the better.

Another aspect of this is that speaking Klingon was an= extra, unnecessary effort for him. =A0It was obvious that I also speak Eng= lish, as I spoke it with my wife and everyone else, except him. =A0In studi= es of bilingualism, the kids who tend to achieve fluency in multiple langua= ges didn't have a choice, such as grandparents who only spoke a differe= nt language than the main language of the community or household. =A0If you= r wife can speak Lojban, you can make Lojban the language of the household.=

Some things that worked:

We p= layed a game where I would name body parts and he would point to them. =A0{= nuqDaq 'oH ghItlhlIj'e'?} ("where's your nose?"),= {nuqDaq 'oH qevpobwIj'e'?"} ("where's my cheek&q= uot;). =A0This is a pretty simple game, easy to learn and play, and it sets= up a good sentence pattern for later interactions ("where's your/= my/his XX?")

Every night at bedtime, as part of his daily routine, = we would sing a "lullaby" in Klingon, the Klingon Imperial Anthem= {taHjaj wo'}. =A0(I don't think the composer ever thought it would= be used as a lullaby!) =A0He got so good at this, he was better at 2-1/2 t= han most adult speakers of the language, due to the daily practice. =A0Pick= (or translate) something that can be done every day. =A0Doesn't have t= o be a bedtime thing, just so long as it becomes a daily routine. =A0At fir= st it should not change, it should be the same thing every day, but later y= ou can start to change it. =A0Make it fun.

I spoke Klingon with Alec everywhere: at the store, in= the park, in the house, etc. =A0It didn't matter whether there were ot= her people around and if they gave me strange looks. =A0Most people don'= ;t recognize Klingon for what it is, they just assumed it was some other la= nguage they didn't know. =A0You don't need to explain yourself to a= nyone, just have fun with it. =A0In some cases it may be easier NOT to expl= ain what you're doing! =A0Fewer people know of Lojban than Klingon, so = you'll find yourself answering lots of the same questions over again. = =A0You might print out a little business card-sized note that you can hand = to people who are truly curious, with answers to common questions and a lin= k to a website. =A0This can save your sanity.

Just before Alec was 3 years old I stopped, because he= was starting to resist. =A0I could see that he was becoming unhappy, and t= his wasn't worth it to me. =A0Especially as your child becomes more voc= al and communicative, pay careful attention to their attitude and behavior.= =A0You'll have to decide for yourself how far you want to take it and = how hard you want to try, but don't overdo it. =A0If it works, great, b= ut if not, don't force it.

At the very least, document what you're doing, the= vocabulary you use, and all the progress you make. =A0You'll be asked = about this for years to come, especially if you're successful. =A0:) = =A0If there's an active community of Lojbanists (sorry, don't know = much about it), enlist their help with any challenges you face (how DO you = say "dirty diaper" in Lojban?). =A0Anyone else raise their kids s= peaking Lojban, or who have made Lojban the language of their household? = =A0Since you've got a few years to prepare, you can translate a collect= ion of children's books, to have ready. =A0Most first readers are more = about the pictures and have simple words and phrases; it's a great plac= e to start. =A0

Hope this is helpful. =A0I know it's a few years o= ff, but please feel free to keep in touch and let me know how it's goin= g!

--d'Armond

On Aug = 24, 2009, at 9:24 AM, Luke Bergen wrote:

Hello Dr. Speers,=A0 I'm a new/intermedia= te speaker of the constructed language Lojban (http://www.lojban.org) and am planning on tryin= g to have kids with my wife in a few years.=A0 I started toying with the id= ea of trying to raise our future children bi-lingual lojban-english by my s= peaking only lojban and my wife only speaking english when I heard about yo= ur endeavors to raise Alec bi-lingual Klingon-English using a similar metho= d.

I was just wondering if you have any advice/precautions given your exp= eriences with Alec in this area.

d'Armond Speers, Ph.D.

=





d'Armond Speers, Ph.D.

<= /div>




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