From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Aug 25 07:18:07 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 25 Aug 2009 07:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mfwqb-0001IF-NH for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 07:18:06 -0700 Received: from mail-vw0-f179.google.com ([209.85.212.179]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MfwqV-0000wO-Sa for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 07:18:05 -0700 Received: by vws9 with SMTP id 9so2525128vws.25 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 07:17:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=kZMv1xaXCaQemU05hS6XkfsdhTSGyPRw9uEm6MpILpc=; b=ErRMw7PbplP0v56w2/p4OOdQ1LkXCWaRq8QkU0VJXKXtA3kA5rqFfcroVhgs+4BQRw AGujEx+2MXavNBlyhzzRkPTfJPPGTXbAZQzBECP0sZn66N/UBtt63LC9TRPs4Yo398dX 3cdGHevyp9Mh5m/TWfCn1F/uzeovHl9zHywQA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=owVl5sFHhFdFp4JDJnhjkML4pWoCrGnRAHKdwpf0Q3tZakw62DyFmCtSi3UBvLYR73 Myn68mfq8uKfyQ5pNdm+nokAceZvpmwbIxtJYYh/wXGy8OFsey4DAuQzxs+Daf50KQmQ jolrEt8Fw4GKoHlAJPENilrtwrfolaM4fis0c= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.79.66 with SMTP id o2mr8116433vck.72.1251209873062; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 07:17:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5715b9300908250658r51f61b8atb9bfb23db11f9f27@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9300908240824n448315ccj221a74bdf88e79e7@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9300908241123y78c25648q324e24f372608a42@mail.gmail.com> <4BD12EB8-CEC5-4EE4-B43C-B9CDB034455C@georgetown.edu> <5715b9300908242154t3719840bv34a35548e0c7df85@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9300908250658r51f61b8atb9bfb23db11f9f27@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:17:52 -0400 Message-ID: <5715b9300908250717l4e787c5dj89907b3877ebc240@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: Fwd: lojban and raising a child bi-lingual From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016363b92ca05fce20471f80096 X-archive-position: 16020 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0016363b92ca05fce20471f80096 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looking through that now. That is awesome Jim! I may very well be trying to find a place to print and spiral bind that into a book to read to my kids (when I have them). In flipping around through it I found this though. Is this a mis-translation or am I just not reading it right? ti se zvati cu lo mamta xirma .e lo cifnu xirma What would this mean? Is {se zvati} a selbri? The {cu} tells me that {lo mamta xirma} is the selbri but I've never seen a gadri inside a selbri without a {be} marker before. This will most definitely be a very useful book for teaching my kids. Does anybody else have any hidden gems like this that aren't on the lojban.orglist of translated works? And for that matter would there be a place on that list for this book? Maybe there could be a section under "Lojbanic Texts" for "in-complete translations" or "works in progress" or the like to distinguish between long finished works like Alice in Wonderland from things like The Prophet? On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > cool. Yeah, the more childrens books/lullabys/limericks/stuff that you'd > sing/speak/play with your kids the better. Thanks for the link Jim, I'll > take a look. > > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:50 AM, james riley wrote: > >> I started translation of a children's book into lojban. Public domain, so >> there's no copyright issues. It needs some work, and I don't think I'll be >> the person to do it. Here's the url http://cukta.bravehost.com/index.html >> >> 2009/8/25 Luke Bergen >> >> mi pensi lo du'u ro do pe'i nelci ti >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: d'Armond Speers >>> Date: Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM >>> Subject: Re: lojban and raising a child bi-lingual >>> To: Luke Bergen >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Luke, >>> >>> I know what you mean about people not answering. Oh well. The problem >>> with me is getting me to shut up. :) >>> >>> Please feel free to forward my e-mail to anyone you like. There is at >>> least one person I know of who was proficient in both Klingon and Lojban. >>> (I know he is fluent in Klingon, but I cannot judge his proficiency in >>> Lojban). If Mark Shoulson is on your list, he also knows a lot about Alec, >>> and has met him a few times. >>> >>> If any questions for me come up through your discussion, feel free to >>> forward them on. >>> >>> Oh, the other thing I should have mentioned in my previous reply, is that >>> you should be fairly thick-skinned to do something like this. I may have >>> gotten more heat because people are familiar with the "bad guy" status of >>> Klingons, but just the idea of raising a child to speak a constructed >>> language may raise people's ire. I got all kinds of criticism, all of it >>> ridiculous. And a fair amount of mocking. (My favorite mocking came from >>> Howard Stern, which put William Shatner in the position of defending me, >>> which was a hoot!). >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> --d'Armond >>> >>> On Aug 24, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for your reply! I honestly only half expected one. Whenever I >>> have emailed people that I don't know in the past the email address has >>> either become old and un-used or they just don't reply for one reason or >>> another. >>> >>> I appreciate the advice. Part of the reason I looked you up now is >>> because I have a couple of years to prepare. I'll take your advice and >>> learn as much vocabulary as possible in that time. >>> >>> The lojban community actually is fairly large and there have been quite a >>> few works translated thus far. It is a rather small community compared to >>> natlang communities but hopefully things like video-conferencing etc... will >>> help me expose my kids to other speakers even if only a little bit. >>> >>> After I mentioned my intentions with my kids we (the folks in the lojban >>> irc channel and mailing list) started wondering about your endeavors to >>> teach Alec Klingon. Would you mind if I forwarded your response on to the >>> lojban mailing list? I'm sure they would find it fascinating as several of >>> them also speak klingon (although I do not). >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 12:08 PM, d'Armond Speers < >>> speersd@georgetown.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi Luke, thanks for writing! >>>> >>>> I spoke to Alec using only Klingon from the time he was born, until he >>>> was almost 3 years. While he was clearly understanding me and starting to >>>> speak a little, ultimately it was unsuccessful. I can give you the reasons >>>> why I think I failed, and you can go from there. >>>> >>>> The first problem I encountered was vocabulary. Klingon has lots of >>>> words for things like shuttlecraft, phaser, transporter ionization unit, but >>>> not a lot of words that are practical on a daily basis with a baby / >>>> toddler. The most immediate things are words like diaper, crib, bottle, >>>> milk, potty, bath, and so on. I found myself improvising in a lot of cases, >>>> and it would have been better if I had been more prepared. When Alec was >>>> about 2 years old, a new book came out with a lot of new vocabulary, and all >>>> of a sudden we had words for things that we didn't have before, like >>>> "table", "window", and so on. On the one hand that helped, but it also >>>> meant that I had to change some words I had been using, which was confusing >>>> (both for him and me). The better prepared you are with vocabulary, the >>>> better. >>>> >>>> The second main problem was that I was the only one in his environment >>>> who spoke Klingon. One time I had a friend visit who spoke Klingon and Alec >>>> was enthralled. But at the time he was still too young to take advantage of >>>> it, and the visit was short, only a day. The more practical, day-to-day >>>> exposure to as many speakers as possible that you can get, the better. >>>> >>>> Another aspect of this is that speaking Klingon was an extra, >>>> unnecessary effort for him. It was obvious that I also speak English, as I >>>> spoke it with my wife and everyone else, except him. In studies of >>>> bilingualism, the kids who tend to achieve fluency in multiple languages >>>> didn't have a choice, such as grandparents who only spoke a different >>>> language than the main language of the community or household. If your wife >>>> can speak Lojban, you can make Lojban the language of the household. >>>> >>>> Some things that worked: >>>> >>>> We played a game where I would name body parts and he would point to >>>> them. {nuqDaq 'oH ghItlhlIj'e'?} ("where's your nose?"), {nuqDaq 'oH >>>> qevpobwIj'e'?"} ("where's my cheek"). This is a pretty simple game, easy to >>>> learn and play, and it sets up a good sentence pattern for later >>>> interactions ("where's your/my/his XX?") >>>> >>>> Every night at bedtime, as part of his daily routine, we would sing a >>>> "lullaby" in Klingon, the Klingon Imperial Anthem {taHjaj wo'}. (I don't >>>> think the composer ever thought it would be used as a lullaby!) He got so >>>> good at this, he was better at 2-1/2 than most adult speakers of the >>>> language, due to the daily practice. Pick (or translate) something that can >>>> be done every day. Doesn't have to be a bedtime thing, just so long as it >>>> becomes a daily routine. At first it should not change, it should be the >>>> same thing every day, but later you can start to change it. Make it fun. >>>> >>>> I spoke Klingon with Alec everywhere: at the store, in the park, in the >>>> house, etc. It didn't matter whether there were other people around and if >>>> they gave me strange looks. Most people don't recognize Klingon for what it >>>> is, they just assumed it was some other language they didn't know. You >>>> don't need to explain yourself to anyone, just have fun with it. In some >>>> cases it may be easier NOT to explain what you're doing! Fewer people know >>>> of Lojban than Klingon, so you'll find yourself answering lots of the same >>>> questions over again. You might print out a little business card-sized note >>>> that you can hand to people who are truly curious, with answers to common >>>> questions and a link to a website. This can save your sanity. >>>> >>>> Just before Alec was 3 years old I stopped, because he was starting to >>>> resist. I could see that he was becoming unhappy, and this wasn't worth it >>>> to me. Especially as your child becomes more vocal and communicative, pay >>>> careful attention to their attitude and behavior. You'll have to decide for >>>> yourself how far you want to take it and how hard you want to try, but don't >>>> overdo it. If it works, great, but if not, don't force it. >>>> >>>> At the very least, document what you're doing, the vocabulary you use, >>>> and all the progress you make. You'll be asked about this for years to >>>> come, especially if you're successful. :) If there's an active community >>>> of Lojbanists (sorry, don't know much about it), enlist their help with any >>>> challenges you face (how DO you say "dirty diaper" in Lojban?). Anyone else >>>> raise their kids speaking Lojban, or who have made Lojban the language of >>>> their household? Since you've got a few years to prepare, you can translate >>>> a collection of children's books, to have ready. Most first readers are >>>> more about the pictures and have simple words and phrases; it's a great >>>> place to start. >>>> >>>> Hope this is helpful. I know it's a few years off, but please feel free >>>> to keep in touch and let me know how it's going! >>>> >>>> --d'Armond >>>> >>>> On Aug 24, 2009, at 9:24 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello Dr. Speers, I'm a new/intermediate speaker of the constructed >>>> language Lojban (http://www.lojban.org) and am planning on trying to >>>> have kids with my wife in a few years. I started toying with the idea of >>>> trying to raise our future children bi-lingual lojban-english by my speaking >>>> only lojban and my wife only speaking english when I heard about your >>>> endeavors to raise Alec bi-lingual Klingon-English using a similar method. >>>> >>>> I was just wondering if you have any advice/precautions given your >>>> experiences with Alec in this area. >>>> >>>> >>>> d'Armond Speers, Ph.D. >>>> speersd@georgetown.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> d'Armond Speers, Ph.D. >>> speersd@georgetown.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > --0016363b92ca05fce20471f80096 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looking through that now.=A0 That is awesome Jim!=A0 I may very well be try= ing to find a place to print and spiral bind that into a book to read to my= kids (when I have them).=A0 In flipping around through it I found this tho= ugh.=A0 Is this a mis-translation or am I just not reading it right?

ti se zvati cu lo mamta xirma .e lo cifnu xirma



What wo= uld this mean?=A0 Is {se zvati} a selbri?=A0 The {cu} tells me that {lo mam= ta xirma} is the selbri but I've never seen a gadri inside a selbri wit= hout a {be} marker before.

This will most definitely be a very useful book for teaching my kids.= =A0 Does anybody else have any hidden gems like this that aren't on the= lojban.org list of translated works?=A0 = And for that matter would there be a place on that list for this book?=A0 <= br>
Maybe there could be a section under "Lojbanic Texts" for &qu= ot;in-complete translations" or "works in progress" or the l= ike to distinguish between long finished works like Alice in Wonderland fro= m things like The Prophet?


On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Luke Be= rgen <lukeabe= rgen@gmail.com> wrote:
cool.=A0 Yeah, the more childrens books/lullabys/limericks/stuff that you&#= 39;d sing/speak/play with your kids the better.=A0 Thanks for the link Jim,= I'll take a look.


On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:50 AM, james riley <jimr1603@gmail.com>= wrote:
I started transla= tion of a children's book into lojban. Public domain, so there's no= copyright issues. It needs some work, and I don't think I'll be th= e person to do it. Here's the url http://cukta.bravehost.com/index.html
2009/8/25 Luke Bergen <= lukeabergen@gmai= l.com>

mi pensi lo du'u ro do pe'i nelci ti

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: d'Armond Speers <speersd@georgetown.edu>
Date: Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: lojban and raising a ch= ild bi-lingual
To: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>


Hi Luke,

I know what you mean about people no= t answering. =A0Oh well. =A0The problem with me is getting me to shut up. = =A0:)

Please feel free to forward my e-mail to any= one you like. =A0There is at least one person I know of who was proficient = in both Klingon and Lojban. =A0(I know he is fluent in Klingon, but I canno= t judge his proficiency in Lojban). =A0If Mark Shoulson is on your list, he= also knows a lot about Alec, and has met him a few times.

If any questions for me come up through your discussion= , feel free to forward them on. =A0

Oh, the other = thing I should have mentioned in my previous reply, is that you should be f= airly thick-skinned to do something like this. =A0I may have gotten more he= at because people are familiar with the "bad guy" status of Kling= ons, but just the idea of raising a child to speak a constructed language m= ay raise people's ire. =A0I got all kinds of criticism, all of it ridic= ulous. =A0And a fair amount of mocking. =A0(My favorite mocking came from H= oward Stern, which put William Shatner in the position of defending me, whi= ch was a hoot!).

Regards,

--d'Armond

On Aug 24,= 2009, at 12:23 PM, Luke Bergen wrote:

Thanks for your reply!=A0 I honestly only half expected one.=A0 Whenever I = have emailed people that I don't know in the past the email address has= either become old and un-used or they just don't reply for one reason = or another.

I appreciate the advice.=A0 Part of the reason I looked you up now is = because I have a couple of years to prepare.=A0 I'll take your advice a= nd learn as much vocabulary as possible in that time.

The lojban co= mmunity actually is fairly large and there have been quite a few works tran= slated thus far.=A0 It is a rather small community compared to natlang comm= unities but hopefully things like video-conferencing etc... will help me ex= pose my kids to other speakers even if only a little bit.

After I mentioned my intentions with my kids we (the folks in the lojb= an irc channel and mailing list) started wondering about your endeavors to = teach Alec Klingon.=A0 Would you mind if I forwarded your response on to th= e lojban mailing list?=A0 I'm sure they would find it fascinating as se= veral of them also speak klingon (although I do not).

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 12:08 PM, d'Arm= ond Speers <speersd@georgetown.edu> wrote:

Hi Luke, thanks for writing!

=
I spoke to Alec using only Klingon from the time he was born, until he= was almost 3 years. =A0While he was clearly understanding me and starting = to speak a little, ultimately it was unsuccessful. =A0I can give you the re= asons why I think I failed, and you can go from there.

The first problem I encountered was vocabulary. =A0Kli= ngon has lots of words for things like shuttlecraft, phaser, transporter io= nization unit, but not a lot of words that are practical on a daily basis w= ith a baby / toddler. =A0The most immediate things are words like diaper, c= rib, bottle, milk, potty, bath, and so on. =A0I found myself improvising in= a lot of cases, and it would have been better if I had been more prepared.= =A0When Alec was about 2 years old, a new book came out with a lot of new = vocabulary, and all of a sudden we had words for things that we didn't = have before, like "table", "window", and so on. =A0On t= he one hand that helped, but it also meant that I had to change some words = I had been using, which was confusing (both for him and me). =A0The better = prepared you are with vocabulary, the better.

The second main problem was that I was the only one in= his environment who spoke Klingon. =A0One time I had a friend visit who sp= oke Klingon and Alec was enthralled. =A0But at the time he was still too yo= ung to take advantage of it, and the visit was short, only a day. =A0The mo= re practical, day-to-day exposure to as many speakers as possible that you = can get, the better.

Another aspect of this is that speaking Klingon was an= extra, unnecessary effort for him. =A0It was obvious that I also speak Eng= lish, as I spoke it with my wife and everyone else, except him. =A0In studi= es of bilingualism, the kids who tend to achieve fluency in multiple langua= ges didn't have a choice, such as grandparents who only spoke a differe= nt language than the main language of the community or household. =A0If you= r wife can speak Lojban, you can make Lojban the language of the household.=

Some things that worked:

We p= layed a game where I would name body parts and he would point to them. =A0{= nuqDaq 'oH ghItlhlIj'e'?} ("where's your nose?"),= {nuqDaq 'oH qevpobwIj'e'?"} ("where's my cheek&q= uot;). =A0This is a pretty simple game, easy to learn and play, and it sets= up a good sentence pattern for later interactions ("where's your/= my/his XX?")

Every night at bedtime, as part of his daily routine, = we would sing a "lullaby" in Klingon, the Klingon Imperial Anthem= {taHjaj wo'}. =A0(I don't think the composer ever thought it would= be used as a lullaby!) =A0He got so good at this, he was better at 2-1/2 t= han most adult speakers of the language, due to the daily practice. =A0Pick= (or translate) something that can be done every day. =A0Doesn't have t= o be a bedtime thing, just so long as it becomes a daily routine. =A0At fir= st it should not change, it should be the same thing every day, but later y= ou can start to change it. =A0Make it fun.

I spoke Klingon with Alec everywhere: at the store, in= the park, in the house, etc. =A0It didn't matter whether there were ot= her people around and if they gave me strange looks. =A0Most people don'= ;t recognize Klingon for what it is, they just assumed it was some other la= nguage they didn't know. =A0You don't need to explain yourself to a= nyone, just have fun with it. =A0In some cases it may be easier NOT to expl= ain what you're doing! =A0Fewer people know of Lojban than Klingon, so = you'll find yourself answering lots of the same questions over again. = =A0You might print out a little business card-sized note that you can hand = to people who are truly curious, with answers to common questions and a lin= k to a website. =A0This can save your sanity.

Just before Alec was 3 years old I stopped, because he= was starting to resist. =A0I could see that he was becoming unhappy, and t= his wasn't worth it to me. =A0Especially as your child becomes more voc= al and communicative, pay careful attention to their attitude and behavior.= =A0You'll have to decide for yourself how far you want to take it and = how hard you want to try, but don't overdo it. =A0If it works, great, b= ut if not, don't force it.

At the very least, document what you're doing, the= vocabulary you use, and all the progress you make. =A0You'll be asked = about this for years to come, especially if you're successful. =A0:) = =A0If there's an active community of Lojbanists (sorry, don't know = much about it), enlist their help with any challenges you face (how DO you = say "dirty diaper" in Lojban?). =A0Anyone else raise their kids s= peaking Lojban, or who have made Lojban the language of their household? = =A0Since you've got a few years to prepare, you can translate a collect= ion of children's books, to have ready. =A0Most first readers are more = about the pictures and have simple words and phrases; it's a great plac= e to start. =A0

Hope this is helpful. =A0I know it's a few years o= ff, but please feel free to keep in touch and let me know how it's goin= g!

--d'Armond

On Aug = 24, 2009, at 9:24 AM, Luke Bergen wrote:

Hello Dr. Speers,=A0 I'm a new/intermedia= te speaker of the constructed language Lojban (http://www.lojban.org) and am planning on tryin= g to have kids with my wife in a few years.=A0 I started toying with the id= ea of trying to raise our future children bi-lingual lojban-english by my s= peaking only lojban and my wife only speaking english when I heard about yo= ur endeavors to raise Alec bi-lingual Klingon-English using a similar metho= d.

I was just wondering if you have any advice/precautions given your exp= eriences with Alec in this area.

d'Armond Speers, Ph.D.

=





d'Armond Speers, Ph.D.

<= /div>






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