From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Aug 25 15:20:32 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mg4NU-0000oU-AQ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:20:32 -0700 Received: from outbound-mail.dca.untd.com ([64.136.47.15]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mg4NQ-0000my-DB for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:20:32 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juno.com; s=alpha; t=1251238822; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=X-UNTD-OriginStamp:From:Date:To:Subject:Message-Id:Content-Type; b=g+pVi/UM7Ro4nnQWp14mqz+U52M/+/Am973UZScZhOGBcovyyKMe7NrymY35wqi29 U557mUIJaVWCG2VcoyorZqOTuP3RffLYqPBokDICGgXIqFCC9SsHS1xs4aCSKOqc4w +pYMMDvxW9zra8Nn9RgpcKLNDskV3aOvvcqVvzDY= X-UOL-TAGLINE: true Received: from outbound-bu1.dca.untd.com (webmail17.dca.untd.com [10.171.12.157]) by smtpout04.dca.untd.com with SMTP id AABFKJ26SAPQFVA2 for (sender ); Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:20:00 -0700 (PDT) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: ynfJG4AWjrNUTte+ZzK1n7ExJvZ3WgDmC5agEXFBwEwoo2RNzZcfXg== Received: (from moorkids@juno.com) by webmail17.dca.untd.com (jqueuemail) id PQUHB4L5; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:19:23 PDT Received: from [98.225.33.20] by webmail17.dca.untd.com with HTTP: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:19:21 GMT X-Originating-IP: [98.225.33.20] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "moorkids@juno.com" Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:19:21 GMT To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: How many possible gismu? X-Mailer: Webmail Version 6.1_P2 Message-Id: <20090825.151921.6127.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--__JWM__J3e58.431dS.7004M" X-ContentStamp: 8:4:4030187235 X-MAIL-INFO:393e0ebbda3a9acadedb97c34e634f735b7b9af36a X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.171.12.157|webmail17.dca.untd.com|outbound-bu1.dca.untd.com|moorkids@juno.com X-archive-position: 16036 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: moorkids@juno.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ----__JWM__J3e58.431dS.7004M Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Coi = Sorry for not responding sooner, I learned a trick awhile ago that relat= es to figuring out how many possible gismu their can be (or at least get= ting a very close estimate). = Gismu can be C V C C V or C C V C V = In lojban there are 18 consonants and 6 vowels. = For now lets assume that C V C C V is the only way to have a gismu, and = that within a gismu a letter cannot be repeated. = For my first letter I can have any consonant. So I have 18 letters to c= hoose from For my second letter I can have any vowel. So I have 6 letters to choos= e from For my third letter I can have any of the remaining consonants. So I ha= ve 17 letters to choose from For my fourth letter I can have any of the remaining consonants. So I h= ave 16 letters to choose from. For my fifth letter I can have any of the remaining vowels to choose fro= m. So I have 5 vowels to choose from. = So C V C C V Becomes 18 * 6 * 17 * 16 * 5 = Which equals 146,880 Now we subtract the 1300 current gismu = This equals 145,580 possible gismu = Now there are 146,880 more combinations using C C V C V = But they would be so close to the 145,580 others that I won=92t count th= em = (even though some of them have to possibility to work) = = Some of the 145,580 possible gismu I have counted will be somewhat hard = to say. But because of the equation I used their will be no letters tha= t repeat themselves, so the gismu that can=92t be spoken won=92t make up= too large of a portion of the 145,580. Plus if I couldn't say the word= sdaro (CCVCV) I could be able to say sadro (CVCCV) this uses the same l= etters, but swaps the "d" and "a", which isn't another combination I hav= e already counted because its part of the CVCCV which I discarded. Since some gismu have a repeated letter (like cmene) there are more poss= ible gismu that have repeated letters (For Example: my equation could tu= rn into 18*6*18*17*5). The added gismu I would have haven't been includ= ed in my 145,580. = So the gismu I have counted but don=92t work will probably be made up fo= r by the gismu I haven=92t counted but do work with extra gismu to spare= = = Because of this I=92m not very concerned about us running out of gismu, = even if we make-up 5 new gismu per year, because we wouldn=92t run out f= or 29,116 years. = Also if we run out of gismu that fit within the limits we have created w= e could just expand the limits of what letter combinations we consider g= ismu (so we could continue to make new gismu). It would be hard, we wou= ld have to make some serious changes in the language but it is possible.= (For example 8 letter words could become gismu) = = = I know I haven=92t proved how my equation works; it is very hard to expl= ain unless you=92re here with me. But if anyone is interested they can = e-mail me at moorkids@juno.com and I will try to explain, and show them = a few examples as to why this does work. ____________________________________________________________ Let great B to B marketing solutions propel your brand to new heights! C= lick now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsKrsomdzkCOUTx77j4QA74= JJq9mQlKRyFKQTIuJBqQgbJvEUnpzQs/ ----__JWM__J3e58.431dS.7004M Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252

Coi

 

Sorry for not respond= ing sooner, I learned a trick awhile ago that relates to figuring out ho= w many possible gismu their can be (or at least getting a very close est= imate).

 

=

Gismu can be    C V C C V    or     C C V C V

 

=

In lojban there are 1= 8 consonants and 6 vowels.

 

=

For now lets assume t= hat C V C C V is the only way to have a gismu, and that within a gismu a= letter cannot be repeated.

 

=

For my first letter I= can have any consonant.  = So I have 18 letters to choose from

For my second letter = I can have any vowel.  So = I have 6 letters to choose from

For my third letter I= can have any of the remaining consonants.  So I have 17 letters to choose from

For my fourth letter = I can have any of the remaining consonants.  So I have 16 letters to choose from.

For my fifth letter I= can have any of the remaining vowels to choose from.  So I have 5 vowels to choose from.

 

=

So         &nb= sp;         C    V    C&n= bsp;    C &= nbsp;   V

Becomes        18= * 6 * 17 * 16 * 5

 

=

Which equals 146,880<= /P>

Now we subtract the 1= 300 current gismu

 

=

This equals 145,580 possible gismu

 

=

Now there are 146,880= more combinations using   <= /SPAN>C C V C V
But they would be so close to the 145,580 others tha= t I won=92t count them
(even though some of them have to possibility= to work)

 

=

 

Some of the 145,580 p= ossible gismu I have counted will be somewhat hard to say.  But because of the equation I used the= ir will be no letters that repeat themselves, so the gismu that can=92t = be spoken won=92t make up too large of a portion of the 145,580.  P= lus if I couldn't say the word sdaro (CCVCV) I could be able to say sadr= o (CVCCV) this uses the same letters, but swaps the "d" and "a", which i= sn't another combination I have already counted because its part of the = CVCCV which I discarded.


Since some gismu = have a repeated letter (like cmene) there are more possible gismu that h= ave repeated letters (For Example: my equation could turn into 18*6*18*1= 7*5).  The added gism= u I would have haven't been included in my 145,580.

 

=

So the gismu I have c= ounted but don=92t work will probably be made up for by the gismu I have= n=92t counted but do work with extra gismu to spare

 

=

 

=

Because of this I=92m= not very concerned about us running out of gismu, even if we make-up 5 = new gismu per year, because we wouldn=92t run out for 29,116 years.

 

=

Also if we run out of= gismu that fit within the limits we have created we could just expand the limits of what letter co= mbinations we consider gismu (so we could continue to make new gismu).  It would be hard, we = would have to make some serious changes in the language but it is p= ossible.
(For example 8 letter words could become gismu)

 

=

 

=

 

=

I know I haven=92t pr= oved how my equation works; it is very hard to explain unless you=92re h= ere with me.  But if anyon= e is interested they can e-mail me at moorkids@juno.com and I will try to = explain, and show them a few examples as to why this does work.

______________________= ______________________________________
Let gre= at B to B marketing solutions propel your brand to new heights! Click no= w!
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