From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Aug 26 12:40:20 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MgOM0-000448-2R for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:40:20 -0700 Received: from mail-gx0-f219.google.com ([209.85.217.219]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MgOLw-00043d-MM for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:40:19 -0700 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19so508864gxk.0 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:40:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=a8O/632o/q5ndo5SnAvdThr05yzg4HY832+1yiuZOPg=; b=c1gSLGbxxYvNpQQmux20SNJ+GblMWwbBsm86f+xZVF0sqCPROLpMU3EyZLtYoQGwzt LPCBGsXsAsfC9Vur8tfaz8J2R0itOE/OeY4qJVnux/HqPcT5VPOmqwtyfvg+fl0qfbU3 hJyCxhQMEHow8wAjybiyWezmTPcV8IDipUVQU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=NP4oxKtDyeWzpZ6XJq7DVBIp45YDhHbQ17wf2cziyrH3BycxI0IQwK6rYzYA5IBZnk XUzCXSuE1AiEnT8wN+hHaGkGnq3mKCJdYtbP/qxiJoaRtJbayJVq/vtRf/BzBMZ2YH+a fo/1jIcyJ+diEpsd/Uo06neP5UaoEu7p92TKQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.125.3 with SMTP id x3mr6340984agc.23.1251315608796; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:40:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3327.79.75.3.133.1251314231.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> References: <605395.64703.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3327.79.75.3.133.1251314231.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 22:40:08 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: Compound vs Coordinate Bilinguals From: Adam Raizen To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163630fee55d3f280472109eba X-archive-position: 16050 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: adam.raizen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --00163630fee55d3f280472109eba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 22:17, Colin Wright < colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> wrote: > Most would accept that words in one's native langauge often > carry additional "baggage" beyond the stated definitions. Well, I would accept that the dictionary definitions are completely inadequate to describe a word's usage. > My understanding is that coordinate bilinguals will not even > try to find matches, they will simply use the correct word > according to the context. Compound bilinguals, on the other > hand, will tend to carry the same baggage in each language, > and have a much tighter match in semantic mappings. > Stephen Krashen (http://www.sdkrashen.com) makes a distinction between 'learning' and 'acquisition' (I don't remember whether he originated this idea). Learning is studying rules and vocabulary; acquisition is getting an intuitive feel through immersion. It sounds to me that the result of learning is what you call here compound bilinguals, and the result of acquisition is coordinate bilinguals. > The thesis to which I referred found that there was no real > measurable shift in personality for compound bilinguals, but > a clear shift for coordinate bilinguals, which I think is > what I would have predicted if the SWH is true. Since it seems to me that coodinate bilinguals gain their ability through immersion, which also almost always includes cultural immersion, that comes as no surprise, and doesn't require SWH to explain it. -- Adam Raizen Timendi causa est nescire. --00163630fee55d3f280472109eba Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 22:17, = Colin Wright <colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> wrote:
Most would accept that words in one's native langauge often
carry additional "baggage" beyond the stated definitions.

Well, I would accept that the dictionary definitions are comp= letely inadequate to describe a word's usage.
=C2=A0
My understanding is that coordinate bilinguals will not even
try to find matches, they will simply use the correct word
according to the context. =C2=A0Compound bilinguals, on the other
hand, will tend to carry the same baggage in each language,
and have a much tighter match in semantic mappings.

Stephen Krashen (http://www.sdkrashen.com) makes a distinction between 'learning= 9; and 'acquisition' (I don't remember whether he originated th= is idea). Learning is studying rules and vocabulary; acquisition is getting= an intuitive feel through immersion. It sounds to me that the result of le= arning is what you call here compound bilinguals, and the result of acquisi= tion is coordinate bilinguals.
=C2=A0
The thesis to which I referred found that there was no real
measurable shift in personality for compound bilinguals, but
a clear shift for coordinate bilinguals, which I think is
what I would have predicted if the SWH is true.

Since = it seems to me that coodinate bilinguals gain their ability through immersi= on, which also almost always includes cultural immersion, that comes as no = surprise, and doesn't require SWH to explain it.

--
Adam Raizen <adam.raizen@gmail.com>
Timendi causa est nescire.
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