From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Aug 26 13:10:19 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MgOp0-0007tz-VB for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:10:19 -0700 Received: from mailgate.denbridgemarine.com ([83.104.25.50]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MgOox-0007tb-I2 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:10:18 -0700 Received: by mailgate.denbridgemarine.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 3A9AC600C57; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 21:10:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from 79.75.83.32 by mailgate.denbridgemarine.com with HTTP; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 21:10:18 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <33340.79.75.83.32.1251317418.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> In-Reply-To: References: <605395.64703.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3327.79.75.3.133.1251314231.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 21:10:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [lojban] Re: Compound vs Coordinate Bilinguals From: "Colin Wright" To: lojban-list@lojban.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 16051 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list >> Most would accept that words in one's native language often >> carry additional "baggage" beyond the stated definitions. > > Well, I would accept that the dictionary definitions are > completely inadequate to describe a word's usage. I didn't say dictionary, but you're right. Words are notoriously difficult to explain/define/delimit. >> My understanding is that coordinate bilinguals will not even >> try to find matches, they will simply use the correct word >> according to the context. Compound bilinguals, on the other >> hand, will tend to carry the same baggage in each language, >> and have a much tighter match in semantic mappings. > Stephen Krashen (http://www.sdkrashen.com) makes a distinction > between 'learning' and 'acquisition' (I don't remember whether > he originated this idea). Learning is studying rules and > vocabulary; acquisition is getting an intuitive feel through > immersion. It sounds to me that the result of learning is what > you call here compound bilinguals, and the result of acquisition > is coordinate bilinguals. I find his usage very Humpty Dumpty. He's created definitions of common words, such definitions being at odds with my natural usage. I'll use them, but I deplore his usage. >> The thesis to which I referred found that there was no real >> measurable shift in personality for compound bilinguals, but >> a clear shift for coordinate bilinguals, which I think is >> what I would have predicted if the SWH is true. > > Since it seems to me that coodinate bilinguals gain their > ability through immersion, which also almost always includes > cultural immersion, that comes as no surprise, and doesn't > require SWH to explain it. Forgive me if I misunderstand you, but you appear to be interpreting as constant and unvarying fact something that is simply a correlation. Some coordinates gain their ability through what Krashen calls "learning", and some compounds gain their second language through acquisition. Further, I didn't say that these things require SWH to explain them, I meant that I believe a form of SWH to be true (although possibly not the form S or W would originally have expounded) and that the findings I have to hand are what I would've predicted. cdw. -- Denbridge Marine Limited may monitor email traffic data and the content of email for the purposes of security and staff training. Denbridge Marine Limited. Registered in England and Wales at DSG, 43 Castle St, Liverpool. L2 9TL. Registered Number 4850477 To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.