From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Sep 06 14:26:19 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MkPFb-0006Qp-Dx for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:26:19 -0700 Received: from mail-ew0-f216.google.com ([209.85.219.216]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MkPFT-0006QH-0G for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:26:19 -0700 Received: by ewy12 with SMTP id 12so2306464ewy.0 for ; Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:26:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=I4N2i7wKEdDV7xyz45NFmW46VmQqBdfpTDB+fyBm1dI=; b=a+UzeAySyumt4e4BBrxVVDIiQUQvb/Re0qIoLaFBF1m9AAmFGQHdq+uMHtUx6t7C53 f1Ig+JKetV0wekn8ytmSAVoEg0fQOEkicDREG55cSQs7kfm/JeJVEa9tTr+nLrQJzF+p PLN/JJ9EyWEbsvbOs8D2+1Lxo8CajV7XCzjxI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=tCpc8ZSpnCUXpvG+jRyP0zp6jdcDg4cWOgcmg0a7P1j2muxzNG0V+8OvJBIBHcHKZ5 VfaBRS5/ERyj0Y2YKk/gxiq0VBdBmW0OcOA7HL1eydV7dCkGZrE1FKZJa7KIooSRkGzx ttPe23PfDTwKOjz6p6XbWbNi+BvTgCi6tjkPI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.211.146.2 with SMTP id y2mr15460898ebn.77.1252272363165; Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:26:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9ada8ecd0909061401n35c37197j6ff4fac5b267fc5e@mail.gmail.com> References: <9ada8ecd0909051425t78a046f3kddef2869e5c8e7a2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560909060746n223ad9c7ic88894c3513a6ea1@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909061401n35c37197j6ff4fac5b267fc5e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 00:26:03 +0300 Message-ID: <9ada8ecd0909061426r95b84efu76464f7327430f6c@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: xorlo From: Squark Rabinovich To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a2825e57260472ef610e X-archive-position: 16089 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: top.squark@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --001636c5a2825e57260472ef610e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oops, I forgot *cu* in all of my examples. I fixed them below. On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Squark Rabinovich wr= ote: > Btw, what happened to *lo'e* and *le'e* ? They are not mentioned in the > pages about xorlo. Were they scrapped? > Anyway, since nobody gave a complete answer about xorlo, I'll take a shot > at guessing how it should work. > > Lets start with *lo* . The syntax is > > [optional outer quantifier] *lo* [optional inner quantifier] *broda* > * > * > *lo broda means "at least one mass of broda". For example, lo nanmu cu br= evi > le pipno means "at least one group of men carries the piano(s)". The size > of the mass is unknown, in particular it can consist of a single object i= n > which case it is in fact an individual. Also, for continuous things like > mudri or rokci the size might be meaningless i.e. not representable as a > natural number.* > > *lo* *n* *broda* where *n* is a quantifier means "at least one mass of * > broda* out of a mass of *n* *broda".* Supposedly, the later mass of *n* * > broda* is not just a random collection of *broda* but a group unified by > something. For example, *lo mu nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "at least on= e > group of men out of a group of 5 men carries the piano(s)". The size of t= he > mass is still unknown, but it can be at most n.* > > *m* *lo broda* where *m* is a quantifier means "*m *individual *broda*". > For example, *su'o ci lo nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3 men carry the > piano(s) (individually), and possibly some other individual men and/or > groups of men do this as well". On the other hand ci lo nanmu cu brevi le > pipno means "3 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other man or > group of men does this".* > > *m* *lo n broda where n and m are quantifier means "m individual broda* o= ut > of a mass of *n **broda*". For example, *ci le mu nanmu cu brevi le pipno= means > "3 men out of a group of 5 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no > other man or group of men within that group of 5 men does this".* > > *loi* : The syntax is [optional outer quantifier] *pi* [optional > fractional outer quantifier] *loi* [optional inner quantifier] *broda* > * > * > * loi broda is the same as lo broda . loi n broda is the same as lo n bro= da > . > > m loi broda where m is a quantifier means "m masses of broda". For > example, su'o ci loi nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3 groups of men carry > the piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of men= do > this as well". On the other hand ci loi nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3 > groups of men carry the piano(s) and no other man or group of men does > this". The size of the masses is unknown. In particular any/all of the > masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect individuals. The size might be > meaningless for continuous entities. > Another example is lu'i ci loi nanmu cu simxu lo nu damba which means > "three groups of men fight against each other", where "each other" means > between the groups, not within them. > > m loi n broda where n and m are quantifier means "m masses of broda out o= f > a mass of n broda". For example, ci loi mu no nanmu cu brevi le pipno mea= ns > "3 groups of men which are subgroups of a group of 50 men carry the > piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of men do > this as well". On the other hand ci loi nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3 > groups of men carry the piano(s) and no other man or group of men within > that group of 50 men does this". The size of the masses is unknown. In > particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect > individuals. The size might be meaningless for continuous entities. > > Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the total size of the masses > involved. For example ci pi vo loi mu no nanmu cu brevi le pipno means th= e > same as above, with the added information that the 3 groups of men togeth= er > consist 0.4 of the total group i.e. 50 x 0.4 =3D 20 men. > > lo'i : The syntax is [optional outer quantifier] pi [optional fractional > outer quantifier] lo'i [optional inner quantifier] broda > > lo'i broda means "at least one mass of sets of broda" > > lo'i n broda means "at least one mass of subsets of a set of n broda" > > m lo'i broda means "m sets of broda" > > m lo'i n broda means "m subsets of a set of n broda" > > Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the size of union of the sets > involved. > > le lei le'i work in the same way except that a priori, I don't consider > all broda but a specific set of things-I-call-broda. The inner quantifier > specifies the size of this set. > la lai la'i work in the same way except that they refer to things named > broda . The inner quantifier is merely a part of the name. > > It is also an interesting question how sumti-based descriptions (which ar= e > mentioned in the xamoi ckupau of the "reference grammar") work in xorlo. > * > > 2009/9/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas > > On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Squark Rabinovich >> wrote: >> > >> > In other words, since we're doing about 5 men and 3 women rather than = 1 >> man >> > and 1 woman, it seems that a quantifier is logically necessary, and su= ch >> a >> > term cannot be a "constant". >> >> This might help understand how a term can have plural reference: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to >> lojban-list-request@lojban.org >> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or i= f >> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. >> >> > --001636c5a2825e57260472ef610e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oops, I forgot cu=A0in all of my examples. I fixed = them below.

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:01 = AM, Squark Rabinovich <top.squark@gmail.com> wrote:
Btw, what happened to l= o'e=A0and le'e=A0? They are not mentioned in the pages a= bout xorlo. Were they scrapped?

Anyway, since nobody gave a complete answer about xorlo, I&#= 39;ll take a shot at guessing how it should work.

Lets start with lo=A0. The syntax is
<= br>
[optional outer quantifier] lo=A0[optional inner quant= ifier] broda

lo broda=A0means "at least one mass of broda".=A0For example, lo nanmu=A0cu=A0brevi le pipno=A0means "at least = one group of men carries the piano(s)". The size of the mass is unknow= n, in particular it can consist of a single object in which case it is in f= act an individual. Also, for continuous things like mudri=A0or <= i>rokci=A0the size might be meaningless i.e. not representable as a nat= ural number.

lo=A0n=A0broda=A0where n=A0= is a quantifier means "at least one mass of broda=A0out of a ma= ss of n=A0broda".=A0Supposedly, the later mass of n=A0broda=A0is not just a random collection of broda=A0but a= group unified by something. For example, lo mu nanmu=A0cu=A0brevi le pip= no=A0means "at least one group of men out of a group of 5 men carr= ies the piano(s)". The size of the mass is still unknown, but it can b= e at most n.

m=A0lo broda=A0where m=A0is a quan= tifier means "m individual broda". For example, = su'o ci lo nanmu=A0cu=A0brevi le pipno=A0means "3 men carry the= piano(s) (individually), and possibly some other individual men and/or gro= ups of men do this as well". On the other hand ci lo nanmu=A0cu=A0br= evi le pipno=A0means "3 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and = no other man or group of men does this".

m=A0lo=A0n=A0broda=A0where n=A0= and m=A0are quantifier means "m=A0individual brod= a=A0out of a mass of n broda". For example, ci le= mu nanmu=A0cu=A0brevi le pipno=A0means "3 men out of a group of 5 = men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other man or group of men within that group of 5 men=A0d= oes this".

loi=A0: The syntax is [optional outer quantifier= ] pi=A0[optional fractional outer quantifier] loi=A0[optional= inner quantifier] broda

loi broda=A0is the same as lo b= roda .=A0loi=A0n=A0broda= =A0is the same as=A0lo=A0n=A0broda .

m=A0loi broda=A0where=A0m=A0is a q= uantifier means "m=A0masses of=A0broda". For exampl= e,=A0su'o ci loi nanmu=A0cu=A0brevi le pipno=A0means "3 grou= ps of men carry the piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or= groups of men do this as well". On the other hand=A0ci loi nanmu= =A0cu=A0brevi le pipno=A0means "3 groups of men carry the piano(s) = and no other man or group of men does this". The size of the masses is= unknown. In particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1 and thus in = effect individuals. The size might be meaningless for continuous=A0entities= .
Another example is lu'i ci loi nanmu=A0cu=A0simxu lo nu damba=A0w= hich means "three groups of men fight against each other", where = "each other" means between the groups, not within them.

m=A0loi=A0n=A0br= oda=A0where=A0n=A0and=A0m=A0are quantifier means=A0"m=A0masses of=A0broda=A0out of a mass of=A0n=A0broda". For example,=A0ci loi mu no nanmu=A0cu=A0brevi le pipno= =A0means "3 groups of men which are subgroups of a group of 50 men car= ry the piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of me= n do this as well".=A0On the other hand=A0ci loi nanmu=A0cu=A0brevi = le pipno=A0means "3 groups of men carry the piano(s) and no other = man or group of men=A0within that= group of 50 men=A0does this". The size of the masses is unknow= n. In particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect = individuals. The size might be meaningless for continuous=A0entities.

Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the total si= ze of the masses involved. For example=A0= ci pi vo loi mu no nanmu=A0cu=A0brevi le pipn= o=A0means the same as above, with the added information that the 3 g= roups of men together consist 0.4 of the total group i.e. 50 x 0.4 =3D 20 m= en.

lo'i=A0: The syntax is [optional outer = quantifier]=A0pi=A0[optional fractional outer quantifier]=A0lo= 9;i=A0[optional inner quantifier]=A0broda

<= /div>
lo'i broda=A0means "at least one mass of sets of broda&= quot;=A0

lo'i= =A0n=A0broda=A0means "at least one mass of subsets of a set of n=A0broda"

m=A0lo'i broda=A0means "m sets= =A0of=A0broda"

m=A0lo'i=A0<= b>n=A0broda=A0means "m= subsets of a set of n=A0broda"

Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the size of = union of the sets involved.

le=A0le= i le'i work in the same way except that a=A0priori, I don't con= sider all broda=A0but a specific set of things-I-call-broda. The = inner quantifier specifies the size of this set.
la lai la'i=A0work= in the same way except that they refer to things named=A0broda=A0. The inner quantifier is me= rely a part of the name.

It is also an interesting question how sumti-bas= ed descriptions (which are mentioned in the xamoi ckupau=A0of the &q= uot;reference=A0grammar")=A0work in xorlo.

2009/9/6 Jorge Ll= amb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Squark Rabinovich<top.squark@gmail.com> wrote= :
>
> In other words, since we're doing about 5 men and 3 women rather t= han 1 man
> and 1 woman, it seems that a quantifier is logically=A0necessary, and = such a
> term cannot be a "constant".

This might help understand how a term can have plural reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification

mu'o mi'e xorxes


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.



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