From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Sep 07 07:04:44 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 07 Sep 2009 07:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mkepn-0000Ye-ML for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2009 07:04:44 -0700 Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.120]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mkeph-0000WI-3r for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2009 07:04:43 -0700 Received: (qmail 84199 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Sep 2009 14:04:30 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1252332270; bh=y3B+X9VGTRB/pymu0wLJBeZG89mODObmGBU0ZbfCO50=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=lnwkiO05g1MxhH8OWhz7Sh2yNJ+OmbJGnx5kfSlvFukWc+o6xqrmSTYjOxRqfle2SLlhxiau5P7qvda6RPFmsewRnMMmXNrBOnCW7WDtRbrFWV4zVcLS2WBg9IFgAgMW4bc0xoD90HC/BgBQHM5OER5yt10BRVwRAdlgjuZ5qG0= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=TZfxbEZC+j0xzOY3QSpV02g+mAdYJF8iDjGME7JBVhULOw4ghE5m8WZdE15nzVSDvz2z9+XnRInZDT/QIybR6AjDRNbBp1JnnpSDyTjESGWWcWoVbO27wLzVu18pmiWXaXnhcsF32bisxm8MMnhbcZuHR25sOBpuvt5hARBAefo=; Message-ID: <386480.83513.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: .p31wFAVM1m3iIm3xOujIgkHV2eHhdcKigs66wu6cWW_yQO0Kk6GhQJWL0dw7TdAOj5V_6ktDDK6IhJAsTzdilNnykUQyszVibQYwuUr7am0mVwe6jlu3tJPKjcTGgbx2eWTFybb8.V3zu5Bvp9sbfld66fbUoUkY25V7xfuVGjum7NuDU3uPHw1Pm2MPDHJEZMudDjAMXz8HDquA_mk.jLw7cLIqBZ1hXQLRgzxoe0.HAXiP_oulKfLRW8RiBmklD.KOSjdFgBcTbjmp.Oi9L_i8xL.Hed8zv14HYHuT7ZpE3G1jG9LJDmCTB3zxralJhFfHQfLvCYYQ_qxWyBUT7bk9yxO9pToxPTBU8fSXXVge5kHJycuo60XonBJ_8NGrPhQiGfS Received: from [24.207.224.145] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 07 Sep 2009 07:04:30 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/1358.27 YahooMailWebService/0.7.338.2 References: <9ada8ecd0909051425t78a046f3kddef2869e5c8e7a2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560909060746n223ad9c7ic88894c3513a6ea1@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909061401n35c37197j6ff4fac5b267fc5e@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909061426r95b84efu76464f7327430f6c@mail.gmail.com> <395902.46727.qm@web50406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <9ada8ecd0909061448p2eaa92ep19569f2b66793b76@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 07:04:30 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: xorlo To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <9ada8ecd0909061448p2eaa92ep19569f2b66793b76@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-220822471-1252332270=:83513" X-archive-position: 16092 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0-220822471-1252332270=:83513 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A=0A=0A>=0A>On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Squark Rabinovich wrote:=0A>=0A>Btw, what happened to lo'e and le'e ? They are n= ot mentioned in the pages about xorlo. Were they scrapped?=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>An= yway, since nobody gave a complete answer about xorlo, I'll take a shot at = guessing how it should work.=0A>>Hey, we did the best we could. What proble= ms remain. (Looking below, I see you haven't yet really taken account of w= hat we said.)=0A>>=0A>>Lets start with lo . The syntax is=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>[op= tional outer quantifier] lo [optional inner quantifier] broda=0A>>=0A>>=0A>= >lo broda means "at least one mass of broda". For example, lo nanmu cu bevr= i le pipno means "at least one group of men carries the piano(s)". The size= of the mass is unknown, in particular it can consist of a single object in= which case it is in fact an individual. Also, for continuous things like m= udri or rokci the size might be meaningless i.e. not representable as a nat= ural number =0A>>I think the word "mass" is a bad choice here, as it brings= to mind things like water, which can, indeed, be handled by this technique= but are better treated in other ways. And the "at least one" doesn't work= either, lois just like le except for being veridical, so "the group of act= ual brodas I have in mind" is better (except that "group" has a mathematica= l sound inappropriate here (I use "bunch" and even that bugs xorxes, who wa= nts no hint of an entity between the brodas and their expression, so just "= (Some) brodas").=0A>>=0A>>lo n broda where n is a quantifier means "at leas= t one mass of broda out of a mass of n broda". Supposedly, the later mass o= f n broda is not just a random collection of broda but a group unified by s= omething. For example, lo mu nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "at least one gr= oup of men out of a group of 5 men carries the piano(s)". The size of the m= ass is still unknown, but it can be at most n=0A>>No, the group (bunch) has= 5 members (x: "Five men" that I have in mind and who will be considered to= gether in what follows)=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>m lo broda where m is a quantifi= er means "m individual broda". For example, su'o ci lo nanmu cu bevri le pi= pno means "3 men carry the piano(s) (individually), and possibly some other= individual men and/or groups of men do this as well". On the other hand ci= lo nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 men carry the piano(s) (individually) = and no other man or group of men does this".=0A>>Note, importantly, that th= e three (or at least three) men are from a bunch which will be treated toge= ther, not just any old men. Also, fractional quantification makes some sen= se here, again as pulling out a number of brodas, the number being specifie= d as a fraction of the whole.This section, combined with what follows remin= ds me that I have forgotten how to talk about several bunches. I remember = it as clever, but not the actual technique.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>m lo n broda wher= e n and m are quantifier means "m individual broda out of a mass of n broda= ". For example, ci le mu nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 men out of a grou= p of 5 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other man or group of m= en within that group of 5 men does this".=0A>>I'm not sure about the "and n= o other group within that group" but basically, this looks right. Note the= joy of lo ci lo mu nanmu where we get back to "three men out of our bunch = of five, acting together...."=0A>>=0A>>loi : The syntax is [optional outer = quantifier] pi [optional fractional outer quantifier] loi [optional inner q= uantifier] broda=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>loi broda is the same as lo broda . loi n br= oda is the same as lo n broda .=0A>>I think this is definitely wrong; masse= s are different from bunches (although, in Lojban at least, masses can be t= reated as special kinds of bunches). I think we are now at the blender cas= es, at least for things like humans. At the very least, the "members" of l= oi broda are not guaranteed recoverable in their original form: a fifth of = loi mu nanmu need not be a nanmu, only becomposed entirely of nanmu bits.= =0A>>=0A>>m loi broda where m is a quantifier means "m masses of broda". Fo= r example, su'o ci loi nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 groups of men carry= the piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of men = do this as well". On the other hand ci loi nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3= groups of men carry the piano(s) and no other man or group of men does thi= s". The size of the masses is unknown. In particular any/all of the masses = can be of size 1 and thus in effect individuals. The size might be meaningl= ess for continuous entities.=0A>>>>Another example is lu'i ci loi nanmu cu = simxu lo nu damba which means "three groups of men fight against each other= ", where "each other" means between the groups, not within them.=0A>>I'm no= t sure I followed all this but I think it is more or less right; certainly,= pulling individuals out of a mass cannot be the job of a whole-number quan= tifier. And I think your examples make more sense with lo. =0A>>m loi n b= roda where n and m are quantifier means "m masses of broda out of a mass of= n broda". For example, ci loi mu no nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 group= s of men which are subgroups of a group of 50 men carry the piano(s), and p= ossibly some other individual men and/or groups of men do this as well". On= the other hand ci loi nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 groups of men carry= the piano(s) and no other man or group of men within that group of 50 men = does this". The size of the masses is unknown. In particular any/all of the= masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect individuals. The size might be = meaningless for continuous entities.=0A>>No, I think -- based on the above = -- that it means m masses of n brodas, drawn from all the brodas.=0A>> Alte= rnatively, it might be a mass of m brodas drawn from the mass of n.=0A>>=0A= >>Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the total size of the masses i= nvolved. For example ci pi vo loi mu no nanmu cu bevri le pipno means the s= ame as above, with the added information that the 3 groups of men together = consist 0.4 of the total group i.e. 50 x 0.4 =3D 20 men.=0A>>I don't know w= hether your are portioning out a mass by weight or volume or some other met= rical way, but this just says you're talking about 0.4 of it.=0A>>lo'i : Th= e syntax is [optional outer quantifier] pi [optional fractional outer quant= ifier] lo'i [optional inner quantifier] broda=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>lo'i broda mean= s "at least one mass of sets of broda" Ithinkthat lo'i is as specific (or i= s it definite?) asloitself, i.e., this means "the set of broda I have in mi= nd."=0A>>=0A>>lo'i n broda means "at least one mass of subsets of a set of = n broda"=0A>>It just says =3Dthe set has n members.=0A>>=0A>>m lo'i broda m= eans "m sets of broda"=0A>>I just don't think so; at best it means an m-mem= bered subset of the original set, and I am not sure it doesn't get us back = to the members directly.=0A>>=0A>>m lo'i n broda means "m subsets of a set = of n broda"=0A>>Ditto=0A>>=0A>>Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes t= he size of union of the sets involved.=0A>>I don't see this one; I would su= ppose they gave the number of members (in the subset) as a fraction of the = original set=0A>>=0A>>le lei le'i work in the same way except that a priori= , I don't consider all broda but a specific set of things-I-call-broda. The= inner quantifier specifies the size of this set.=0A>>la lai la'i work in t= he same way except that they refer to things named broda . The inner quanti= fier is merely a part of the name.=0A>>I have tried to think of all this as= systematic and it well may not be.=0A>>=0A>>It is also an interesting ques= tion how sumti-based descriptions (which are mentioned in the xamoi ckupau = of the "reference grammar") work in xorlo.=0A>>I don't see the problem here= , as witness the example above.=0A>>=0A>>2009/9/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Squark Rabinov= ich wrote:=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>> In other words, since = we're doing about 5 men and 3 women rather than 1 man=0A>>>>>>> and 1 woman= , it seems that a quantifier is logically necessary, and such a=0A>>>>>>> t= erm cannot be a "constant".=0A>>>=0A>>>This might help understand how a ter= m can have plural reference:=0A>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quant= ification=0A>>>=0A>>>>>>mu'o mi'e xorxes=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>>>>To unsubscribe= from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org=0A>>>>>>with t= he subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if=0A>>>>>= >you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.=0A>>>=0A>= >>=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-220822471-1252332270=:83513 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=

On Mon, S= ep 7, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Squark Rabinovich <top.squark@gmail.com> w= rote:
=0A=0A
Btw, what happened to lo'e and le'e = ? They are not mentioned in the pages about xorlo. Were they scrapped?
= =0A=0A
Anyway, since nobody gave a complete answer about xorl= o, I'll take a shot at guessing how it should work.
=0A
Hey, we did the best we could. What problems remai= n.  (Looking below, I see you haven't yet really taken account of what= we said.)
Lets start with lo . The syntax= is

[optional outer quantifier] lo [op= tional inner quantifier] broda

lo= broda means "at least one mass of= broda". For example, lo= nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "at least one g= roup of men carries the piano(s)". The size of the mass is unknown, in part= icular it can consist of a single object in which case it is in fact an ind= ividual. Also, for continuous things like mudri or rokci=  the size might be meaningless i.e. not representable as a natural number
I think the wor= d "mass" is a bad choice here, as it brings to mind things like water, whic= h can, indeed, be handled by this technique but are better treated in other= ways.  And the "at least one" doesn't work either, lo is just like le ex= cept for being veridical, so "the group of actual <= span style=3D"font-style: normal;"><= span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">brodas I have in mind" is better (except that "group" has a mathematical = sound inappropriate here (I use "bunch" and even that bugs xorxes, who want= s no hint of an entity between the brodas and their expression, so just "(S= ome) brodas").
=0A=0A=0A
lo&nb= sp;n broda where n is a quantifier mean= s "at least one mass of broda out of a mass of n broda". Supposedly, the later mass of n broda&= nbsp;is not just a random collection of broda but a group unifi= ed by something. For example, lo mu nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "at least one gr= oup of men out of a group of 5 men carries the piano(s)". The size of the m= ass is still unknown, but it can be at most n
No, the group (bunch) has 5 members (x: "Five men" that I h= ave in mind and who will be considered together in what follows)
=
=0A=0A=0A

m lo broda=  where m is a quantifier means "m individual bro= da". For example, su'o ci lo nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 men carry the pi= ano(s) (individually), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups= of men do this as well". On the other hand ci lo nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3= men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other man or group of men doe= s this".
=0A=0A=0A
Note, importantly, that the three (or at least three) men are fro= m a bunch which will be treated together, not just any old men. = ; Also, fractional quantification makes= some sense here, again as pulling out a number of brodas, the number being= specified as a fraction of the whole.This section, combined with what foll= ows reminds me that I have forgotten how to talk about several bunches.&nbs= p; I remember it as clever, but not the actual technique.

m lo n broda where n and m are quantifier means "m individual broda out of a mass of n broda". For example, ci le mu nanmu cu = bevri le pipno means "3 men out of a group of 5 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other man or group= of men within that group of 5 = men does this".
=0A=0A=0A
I'm not sure about the "and no other group within that gr= oup" but basically, this looks right.  Note the joy of lo ci lo mu nanmu where we get back to "three m= en out of our bunch of five, acting together...."
l= oi : The syntax is [optional outer quantifier] pi [opt= ional fractional outer quantifier] loi [optional inner quantifi= er] broda

=0A=0A=0Aloi broda=  is the same as lo broda . loi n broda is the same as lo n broda .
=0A
I think this is definitely wrong; masses are diff= erent from bunches (although, in Lojban at least, masses can be treated as = special kinds of bunches).  I think we are now at the blender cases, a= t least for things like humans.  At the very least, the "members" of l= oi broda are not guaranteed recoverable in their original form:  a fifth of loi mu nanmu need not be a = nanmu, only becomposed entirely of nanmu bits.
m loi broda where m is a quantifier means= "m masses of broda". For example, su'o ci = loi nanmu cu bevri = le pipno means "3 groups of men carry the piano(s), and possibly s= ome other individual men and/or groups of men do this as well". On the othe= r hand ci loi nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 groups of men = carry the piano(s) and no other man or group of men does this". The size of= the masses is unknown. In particular any/all of the masses can be of size = 1 and thus in effect individuals. The size might be meaningless for continu= ous entities.
=0A=0A
=0AAnother example= is lu'i ci loi nanmu cu=  simxu lo nu damba which means "three groups of men fight = against each other", where "each other" means between the groups, not withi= n them.
=0A=0A
I'm n= ot sure I followed all this but I think it is more or less right; certainly= , pulling individuals out of a mass cannot be the job of a whole-= number quantifier.  And I think your examples make more sense with lo. 
m = loi n broda where n and = m are quantifier means "m masses of&nb= sp;broda out of a mass of = n broda". For example,&n= bsp;ci loi mu no nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 groups of men which are subgroup= s of a group of 50 men carry the piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of men do t= his as well". On the other hand ci loi nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3= groups of men carry the piano(s) and no other man or group of men within that group of 50 men=  does this". The size of the masses is unknown. In particular any/all = of the masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect individuals. The size mig= ht be meaningless for continuous entities.
=0A=0A=0A
No, I think -- based on the above -- that it means m masses of n br= odas, drawn from all the brodas.
 Alternatively, it might be a mass= of m brodas drawn from the mass of n.
Adding a fracti= onal outer quantifier fixes the total size of the masses involved. For exam= ple ci pi vo loi mu no nanmu = cu bevri le pipno means the same as above, with the ad= ded information that the 3 groups of men together consist 0.4 of the total = group i.e. 50 x 0.4 =3D 20 men.
=0A=0A=0A
I don't know whether your are portioning out a mas= s by weight or volume or some other metrical way, but this just says you're= talking about 0.4 of it.
<= /span>lo'i : The syntax is [optional outer quantifier] pi<= /i> [optional fractional outer quantifier] lo'i [opti= onal inner quantifier] broda

=0A=0A=0A
lo'i broda means "at least one mass of sets of broda" 
=0AI think that lo'i is as spe= cific (or is it definite?) as lo itself, i.e., t= his means "the set of broda I have in mind."
=
lo'i n=  broda means "at least one mass of subsets of <= /i>a set of n broda"
=0AIt just says =3Dthe set has n members.
m lo'i broda means "m sets of bro= da"
I just don't think so;= at best it means an m-membered subset of the original set, and I am not su= re it doesn't get us back to the members directly.
= m lo'i n = broda means "m subsets of a set of n = broda"
=0A=0A=0A
Ditto
Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the = size of union of the sets involved.
I don't see this one; I would suppose they gave the number of members= (in the subset) as a fraction of the original set
le lei le'i work in the same way except that a pr= iori, I don't consider all broda but a specific set of things-I= -call-broda. The inner quantifier specifies the size of this set.
=0A=0A=0A
l= a lai la'i work in the same way except that they refer to things <= span style=3D"text-decoration: underline;">named broda = . The inner quantifier is merely a part of the name.
=0A=0A=0AI have tried to think of all this as sy= stematic and it well may not be.
It is also an interes= ting question how sumti-based descriptions (which are mentioned in t= he xamoi ckupau of the "reference grammar") work in x= orlo.
=0A=0A
=0A
I don't see the problem here, as witnes= s the example above.
2009/9/6 Jorge Ll= amb=EDas <jjll= ambias@gmail.com>
=0A
=0A
=0A
On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at= 6:25 PM, Squark Rabinovich<top.= squark@gmail.com> wrote:
=0A>
=0A> In other words, since= we're doing about 5 men and 3 women rather than 1 man
=0A> and 1 wom= an, it seems that a quantifier is logically necessary, and such a
= =0A> term cannot be a "constant".
=0A
=0A
This might help und= erstand how a term can have plural reference:
=0Ahtt= p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification
=0A=0Amu'o mi'e xorxes
=0A
=0A
=0ATo unsubscribe from this list, sen= d mail to lojba= n-list-request@lojban.org
=0Awith the subject unsubscrib= e, or go to http:= //www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
=0Ayou're really stuck, = send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
=0A
=0A

=0A

=0A

= =0A=0A
=0A<= br>=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-220822471-1252332270=:83513-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.