From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Sep 11 11:27:09 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MmApw-0007Q4-Ow for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:27:09 -0700 Received: from ey-out-1920.google.com ([74.125.78.144]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MmApp-0007Pe-Mg for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:27:08 -0700 Received: by ey-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 26so118815eyw.2 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:27:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=v/Ei9mM2JOblAyfGUNXuw1zuH3Om47M0wBR6AEfc2tM=; b=BrrRJ15QfJLMGXcEBH9ogT5EzIcXDkNU3HpBjwZlSDEaSwrdWryRmFILU2M6kzbntL NlUt4Erzb5qt/tU3Awpm10l8XbSTNVOnyQInEpaSKJIU6P5bVfADL3d4jLS96f0WwuNs /Pn/0R+JO5/xyweR0ADgAxxEm+ZUMd92w8sjg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=a2hefgd5twcpvobGV7GEnca+36cSbFz2mTQv9IOR2kJSmEDGPMLTY4p844Y7f1ekDC NiwR2ZlGF3Da535xpG5N3rECSvEmhqpnMZWxl5TaPZgxSdVO7+vRbRhY78p7PtXdvXex pDgI/rm3t7ltt2WYeP4WTb3N7macmPxo4wthg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.30.81 with SMTP id j59mr259353wea.155.1252693619776; Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:26:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090911171920.GR2685@nvg.org> References: <4de8c3930909110409w35f41b1bm186e230607911514@mail.gmail.com> <20090911171920.GR2685@nvg.org> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 20:26:59 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: E-Prime & Lojban From: Mikael Hall To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6dd89f5381eb1047351760c X-archive-position: 16162 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mikael.hall@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0016e6dd89f5381eb1047351760c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well of you are right Arnt, although I consider/believe 'consider' and 'believe' be approximate in meaning and intent - any difference is miniscul= e compared to the difference between 'God is good' and 'I think God act with rightfullness and fairness' and so on. My own "bearing" on lojban as being a language with "naive realism" as "focus" comes from the fact that predicate logic is its base. E-prime, regardless if it has such goals explicitly stated or not, hinders dogmatism by not being the obvius default as it is in english (etc) now. Dogmatism happens to always be connected to a strong sense of being right, which is a sort of realistic stance. Mikael Hall 2009/9/11 Arnt Richard Johansen > On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 01:09:22PM +0200, tijlan wrote: > > What do you think of E-Prime? > > E-Prime is a variant of English that forbids constructions where the copu= la > verb "to be" is obligatory. Supposedly, this changes communication and > possibly also thought by making subjective judgements more overt. > > The problem is that the copula in English is a purely superficial part of > the grammar, which is almost completely separate from the semantic layer.= So > merely reformulating sentences without copulas has no bearing on > "judgementalness", "Aristotelian essentialism" &c. It is easy to show tha= t > this is the case by "translating" the following sentences from > http://nobeliefs.com/eprime.htm in a way that conforms to the rules of > E-Prime, yet undermines its purpose. > > 1A. The electron is a wave. > We consider the electron a wave. > 2A. The electron is a particle. > We consider the electron a particle. > 3A. John is lethargic and unhappy. > John lacks energy and has a bad mood. > 4A. John is bright and cheerful. > John bursts with energy and cheerfulness. > 5A. This is the knife the first man used to stab the second man. > The first man stabbed the second man with this knife. > 6A. The car involved in the hit-and-run accident was a blue Ford. > The driver of a blue Ford hit a person and then drove off. > 7A. This is a fascist idea. > This idea bears all the hallmarks of fascism. > 8A. Beethoven is better than Mozart. > Beethoven's work exceeds that of Mozart in quality. > 9A. That is a sexist movie. > This movie reeks of sexism. > 10A. The fetus is a person. > A fetus becomes a person the moment the sperm enters the egg. > > -- > Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/ > - Hvorfor snakker man engelsk p=E5 Internet? > - Har du h=F8rt om minste felles nevner? > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.or= g > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > --=20 "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." =97 Niels Bohr "There are two kinds of people, those who finish what they start and so on.= " =97 Robert Byrne --0016e6dd89f5381eb1047351760c Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well of you are right Arnt, although I consider/believe 'consider' = and 'believe' be approximate in meaning and intent - any difference= is miniscule compared to the difference between 'God is good' and = 'I think God act with rightfullness and fairness' and so on.

My own "bearing" on lojban as being a language with "nai= ve realism" as "focus" comes from the fact that predicate lo= gic is its base. E-prime, regardless if it has such goals explicitly stated= or not, hinders dogmatism by not being the obvius default as it is in engl= ish (etc) now. Dogmatism happens to always be connected to a strong sense o= f being right, which is a sort of realistic stance.

Mikael Hall

2009/9/11 Arnt Richard Jo= hansen <arj@nvg.org= >
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 01:09:22PM +0200, tijlan wrote: > What do you think of E-Prime?

E-Prime is a variant of English that forbids constructions where the = copula verb "to be" is obligatory. Supposedly, this changes commu= nication and possibly also thought by making subjective judgements more ove= rt.

The problem is that the copula in English is a purely superficial part of t= he grammar, which is almost completely separate from the semantic layer. So= merely reformulating sentences without copulas has no bearing on "jud= gementalness", "Aristotelian essentialism" &c. It is eas= y to show that this is the case by "translating" the following se= ntences from = http://nobeliefs.com/eprime.htm in a way that conforms to the rules of = E-Prime, yet undermines its purpose.

1A. The electron is a wave.
=A0 =A0We consider the electron a wave.
2A. The electron is a particle.
=A0 =A0We consider the electron a particle.
3A. John is lethargic and unhappy.
=A0 =A0John lacks energy and has a bad mood.
4A. John is bright and cheerful.
=A0 =A0John bursts with energy and cheerfulness.
5A. This is the knife the first man used to stab the seco= nd man.
=A0 =A0The first man stabbed the second man with this knife.
6A. The car involved in the hit-and-run accident was a bl= ue Ford.
=A0 =A0The driver of a blue Ford hit a person and then drove off.
7A. This is a fascist idea.
=A0 =A0This idea bears all the hallmarks of fascism.
8A. Beethoven is better than Mozart.
=A0 =A0Beethoven's work exceeds that of Mozart in quality.
9A. That is a sexist movie.
=A0 =A0This movie reeks of sexism.
10A. The fetus is a person.
=A0 =A0 A fetus becomes a person the moment the sperm enters the egg= .

--
Arnt Richard Johansen =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0http://arj.nvg= .org/
- Hvorfor snakker man engelsk p=E5 Internet?
- Har du h=F8rt om minste felles nevner?


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you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.




--
"No, n= o, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." =97 Niels = Bohr

"There are two kinds of people, those who finish what they= start and so on."
=97 Robert Byrne

--0016e6dd89f5381eb1047351760c-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.