From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Sep 16 05:48:21 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 16 Sep 2009 05:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mntvo-0000iG-VI for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2009 05:48:21 -0700 Received: from mail-bw0-f227.google.com ([209.85.218.227]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mntvj-0000fR-Hx for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2009 05:48:20 -0700 Received: by bwz27 with SMTP id 27so3436850bwz.34 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 2009 05:48:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=APbtXxVfYzxYBwEXX6JaFt7BlCBqmPQ7MJCMWADL4RA=; b=H/SbryKS1W+E2LWkGYjH6CmApUmgEkr6wJzYmuPJ0oBcZjzxIZYk4JvCTDwDyNXWgp Hx9DjegGzw30buEoFzger78wHfxa5mzAkosc95BpZZ1sAlxBOzXMS1dbLjqr6+qp6XH8 0HZBhO88RPrqNVG/nMAH5UdC6d5CsAHnTzVJ8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=RcsN8kqXFyRXGoXZsRfUlgQxoEb9OreiYjAx5+lBj15ZbfFeU5j8lLWFJQvl0J1YFx RzFWlcZfRB0SowLVe43pT+nwv5TW4x1hpUhR+3CkqwEOXPR/zn/WGLfOrockQHNPZBwv TaSELk1OnjjxwCR+OheWGAkLK6u+YV5PqHi9A= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.2.199 with SMTP id 7mr7220174bkk.76.1253105288508; Wed, 16 Sep 2009 05:48:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 15:48:08 +0300 Message-ID: <71550650909160548v59f5a03bje8d06fefd058c81a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: Fwd: lojban and raising a child bi-lingual From: Yoav Nir To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c1de69674910473b14f1f X-archive-position: 16204 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: yoav.nir@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0015174c1de69674910473b14f1f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I may be wrongly picking up on your name, and maybe it's just a handle, but it sounds decidedly non-English speaking. So at what age did you start learning English? I did after age 8, and yet both you and I are fluent enough. At least in this and other messages to the list, you show evidence of both a rich vocabulary and good command of the complex English tense system. I believe that my English is similarly up to the standards of a native English speaker, though maybe with a somewhat poorer vocabulary than that of an educated English speaker. Talking face to face, it takes Americans some time to recognize a foreign accent, but I can attribute that to the variety of accents you can find within the US itself. With people who learn a foreign language by immersion later in life, I've seen them get to a very good command of the new language in a short time, reaching the level of a 6-year-old kid within 1 year. Russians, for example, can learn to use articles if they want to. With all that, I don't see how you could say that the brain can't learn new patterns. On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 6:36 AM, Ivo Doko wrote: > 2009/9/15 Adam Raizen : > > If you were immersed in a foreign-language culture for all your waking > hours > > with no other possible language to communicate with, and in a culture > that > > you saw yourself as a part of, you too would learn the language fluently, > > and in far less than the approximately 6 years that children take to > attain > > fluency. > > > I'm not so sure about that. I'm pretty sure I either saw a documentary > or read an article about an experiment on how children learn languages > quite differently than adolescents and grown-ups. > > There is a certain part of the human brain dedicated especially to > languages and in children that part of the brain is, for the lack of a > better word, active, meaning that it learns and changes and all the > languages a child learns are "learned" in that part of the brain. But > it seems that, at the age of 6 or 8 or something like that, that part > of the brain becomes "inactive", not in the sense that it shuts off > but that, although it is still capable of processing what it has > learned, it isn't capable of learning anything new any more. In a > brain of an adolescent or a grown-up, any new languages learned are > "learned" in the part of the brain dedicated to learning rules. As the > adolescent or the grown-up refine their knowledge of the language they > are learning and attain fluency in it, the only thing that happens is > that the number of neural connections between the part of the brain > dedicated to learning rules and the part of the brain dedicated to > languages drastically increases as they get closer to being fully > fluent in the language. So no matter how hard grown-ups try, it's > never going to be as easy to learn a new language to them as it is to > children. > > I'm positive that I either read or saw this somewhere, but I'll gladly > try to dig up some links and references if you don't believe me. > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > --0015174c1de69674910473b14f1f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I may be wrongly picking up on your name, and maybe it'= ;s just a handle, but it sounds decidedly non-English speaking.

So at what age did you start learning English? =A0I did after age 8= , and yet both you and I are fluent enough. At least in this and other mess= ages to the list, you show evidence of both a rich vocabulary and good comm= and of the complex English tense system. I believe that my English is simil= arly up to the standards of a native English speaker, though maybe with a s= omewhat poorer vocabulary than that of an educated English speaker.=A0

Talking face to face, it takes Americans some time to r= ecognize a foreign accent, but I can attribute that to the variety of accen= ts you can find within the US itself.

With people = who learn a foreign language by immersion later in life, I've seen them= get to a very good command of the new language in a short time, reaching t= he level of a 6-year-old kid within 1 year. Russians, for example, can lear= n to use articles if they want to.

With all that, I don't see how you could say that t= he brain can't learn new patterns.

On= Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 6:36 AM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
2009/9/15 Adam Raizen <adam.raizen@gmail.com>:
> If you were immersed in a foreign-language culture f= or all your waking hours
> with no other possible language to communicate with, and in a culture = that
> you saw yourself as a part of, you too would learn the language fluent= ly,
> and in far less than the approximately 6 years that children take to a= ttain
> fluency.


I'm not so sure about that. I'm pretty sure I either saw a do= cumentary
or read an article about an experiment on how children learn languages
quite differently than adolescents and grown-ups.

There is a certain part of the human brain dedicated especially to
languages and in children that part of the brain is, for the lack of a
better word, active, meaning that it learns and changes and all the
languages a child learns are "learned" in that part of the brain.= But
it seems that, at the age of 6 or 8 or something like that, that part
of the brain becomes "inactive", not in the sense that it shuts o= ff
but that, although it is still capable of processing what it has
learned, it isn't capable of learning anything new any more. In a
brain of an adolescent or a grown-up, any new languages learned are
"learned" in the part of the brain dedicated to learning rules. A= s the
adolescent or the grown-up refine their knowledge of the language they
are learning and attain fluency in it, the only thing that happens is
that the number of neural connections between the part of the brain
dedicated to learning rules and the part of the brain dedicated to
languages drastically increases as they get closer to being fully
fluent in the language. So no matter how hard grown-ups try, it's
never going to be as easy to learn a new language to them as it is to
children.

I'm positive that I either read or saw this somewhere, but I'll gla= dly
try to dig up some links and references if you don't believe me.


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.


--0015174c1de69674910473b14f1f-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.