From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Sep 16 09:51:38 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MnxjF-0002P1-OZ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:51:38 -0700 Received: from mail-yw0-f196.google.com ([209.85.211.196]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MnxjA-0002Oa-NQ for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:51:37 -0700 Received: by ywh34 with SMTP id 34so18342ywh.10 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:51:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=TBBUm4Qv5WVMEvUpWViV5lw0jQ7Ru1X7ttLLbesFD+U=; b=k25wDosJgNzZULagXHbP6P7gUzzBRd2JMkb6PeGtvH8Uv+GfgamOjpFsAwuxFc43gh Tt6umhPs4zBlaSY2yVFQvvFRVrKfbLpwmvLvQq7ca7pe0k6CXdhAza0qVdQo8g8bwCT3 9tMdxJEMfpcFNdF53nc2mAiVERBddHRCv0uQI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Alk5TyjHaQ54do6q8cr9ta04hfA8PBxiPuWtuPTec3OBa0gunzanHFQULzngxiaD6t JvS9PbkiG/h7M351QQrsFQaf5vrqPFU5XrVZUS6id38dYOPeTL7C6NelKdyziYQD4nS6 SoCX7L99OR+QR1XO7yiVLHxKvaXWCIFQinEQ8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.113.3 with SMTP id l3mr15088432ybc.90.1253119886442; Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:51:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4AB11623.7050201@comcast.net> References: <71550650909160548v59f5a03bje8d06fefd058c81a@mail.gmail.com> <4AB11623.7050201@comcast.net> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 12:51:26 -0400 Message-ID: <5715b9300909160951y46f1e7c6mc33b94f9849c5ca7@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: Fwd: lojban and raising a child bi-lingual From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd39cb6b1405e0473b4b556 X-archive-position: 16206 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --000e0cd39cb6b1405e0473b4b556 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Fortunately, we're fairly careful about being sure to log all "idioms" in lojban in jbovlaste or such (nikyge'u anyone?). So hopefully a person learning lojban who studied everything would be able to learn the idioms as well (there aren't that many at this point anyway). On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Jesse Johnson wrote: > Hi, > > My first post on the list. I decided to learn a little Lojban about 2 > weeks ago. The idea of a language with grammar based on predicate logic > intrigues me. > To address what you are talking about, one of my coworkers in the past > moved to the US from Italy when he was 8 or 9 years old. He did not speak > one word of English when he arrived. He has no accent so most native > speakers do not realize that English is not his native tongue. What gets > him are some of the idioms. There were a few times when I used some slang > or some idiom and I'd get a blank stare, then a question about what it > meant. Those were the only times that his command of the English language > would indicate that he wasn't born here. His grammar is better than mine. > Jesse Johnson > > Yoav Nir wrote: > >> I may be wrongly picking up on your name, and maybe it's just a handle, >> but it sounds decidedly non-English speaking. >> >> So at what age did you start learning English? I did after age 8, and yet >> both you and I are fluent enough. At least in this and other messages to the >> list, you show evidence of both a rich vocabulary and good command of the >> complex English tense system. I believe that my English is similarly up to >> the standards of a native English speaker, though maybe with a somewhat >> poorer vocabulary than that of an educated English speaker. >> Talking face to face, it takes Americans some time to recognize a foreign >> accent, but I can attribute that to the variety of accents you can find >> within the US itself. >> >> With people who learn a foreign language by immersion later in life, I've >> seen them get to a very good command of the new language in a short time, >> reaching the level of a 6-year-old kid within 1 year. Russians, for example, >> can learn to use articles if they want to. >> >> With all that, I don't see how you could say that the brain can't learn >> new patterns. >> > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > --000e0cd39cb6b1405e0473b4b556 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fortunately, we're fairly careful about being sure to log all "idi= oms" in lojban in jbovlaste or such (nikyge'u anyone?).=A0 So hope= fully a person learning lojban who studied everything would be able to lear= n the idioms as well (there aren't that many at this point anyway).

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Jesse John= son <garand55= 5@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi,

My first post on the list. =A0I decided to learn a little Lojban about 2 we= eks ago. =A0The idea of a language with grammar based on predicate logic in= trigues me.
To address what you are talking about, one of my coworkers in the past move= d to the US from Italy when he was 8 or 9 years old. =A0He did not speak on= e word of English when he arrived. =A0He has no accent so most native speak= ers do not realize that English is not his native tongue. =A0What gets him = are some of the idioms. =A0There were a few times when I used some slang or= some idiom and I'd get a blank stare, then a question about what it me= ant. =A0Those were the only times that his command of the English language = would indicate that he wasn't born here. =A0His grammar is better than = mine.
Jesse Johnson


Yoav Nir wrote:
I may be wrongly picking up on your name, and maybe it's just a handle,= but it sounds decidedly non-English speaking.

So at what age did you start learning English? =A0I did after age 8, and ye= t both you and I are fluent enough. At least in this and other messages to = the list, you show evidence of both a rich vocabulary and good command of t= he complex English tense system. I believe that my English is similarly up = to the standards of a native English speaker, though maybe with a somewhat = poorer vocabulary than that of an educated English speaker.
Talking face to face, it takes Americans some time to recognize a foreign a= ccent, but I can attribute that to the variety of accents you can find with= in the US itself.

With people who learn a foreign language by immersion later in life, I'= ve seen them get to a very good command of the new language in a short time= , reaching the level of a 6-year-old kid within 1 year. Russians, for examp= le, can learn to use articles if they want to.

With all that, I don't see how you could say that the brain can't l= earn new patterns.



To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.


--000e0cd39cb6b1405e0473b4b556-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.