From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Sep 16 14:50:49 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mo2Om-0004Lg-P0 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:50:49 -0700 Received: from mail-fx0-f211.google.com ([209.85.220.211]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mo2Oi-0004L9-Hp for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:50:48 -0700 Received: by fxm7 with SMTP id 7so3793797fxm.34 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:50:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=zc6yhyQ7c3WAqNoxhwVPg/O+W2XIRlm7jyMkdwKE9JE=; b=FBTtMX7M7WB80UlQqDo9QeeoZsMI8pmMymWnclt6G/GM4MOYRIcgO4pP22s860JxMW XI1h9bOERhLjgRNT6mnvCLfyPIQvDI9OPUVoGgWnjPmJcMjgpW7cEkP7x1Xu0MuppdRv SMK9DCsX0a4l5iaKkE+OVlUgBSdI7FLc4KUnI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=e0m+Vkiw9oRA2KxvMwspMSOZ2+M2F7Ale0Hke420p+VAeq0C1CjhlstyvJJ4ITV9NV rCtOXdoWEWD95yilJDnQu5y3/ZVGYqu8CeQ0AcBmh5eUodpAZcz4ISskXLd1LBPhuAHy xBQT/QdMOZ94XvYHyfFkBsnjxPpPEl8Gxf19Q= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.156.213 with SMTP id y21mr7829053bkw.109.1253137837469; Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:50:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4AB11623.7050201@comcast.net> References: <71550650909160548v59f5a03bje8d06fefd058c81a@mail.gmail.com> <4AB11623.7050201@comcast.net> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 00:50:37 +0300 Message-ID: <71550650909161450w2682d8a2ie7b4ca7f359b7bd6@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: Fwd: lojban and raising a child bi-lingual From: Yoav Nir To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cf8a0a82eaa0473b8e350 X-archive-position: 16212 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: yoav.nir@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0015175cf8a0a82eaa0473b8e350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Jesse Johnson wrote= : > Hi, > > My first post on the list. I decided to learn a little Lojban about 2 > weeks ago. The idea of a language with grammar based on predicate logic > intrigues me. > To address what you are talking about, one of my coworkers in the past > moved to the US from Italy when he was 8 or 9 years old. He did not spea= k > one word of English when he arrived. He has no accent so most native > speakers do not realize that English is not his native tongue. What gets > him are some of the idioms. There were a few times when I used some slan= g > or some idiom and I'd get a blank stare, then a question about what it > meant. Those were the only times that his command of the English languag= e > would indicate that he wasn't born here. His grammar is better than mine= . > Jesse Johnson > That his grammar is better is no surprise. He's learned English along with the grammar, whereas you learned it by attempting to find patterns in the way other people spoke. With total immersion since age 8 or 9, I'm surprised he's missing idioms, but it does make sense that he would miss, say, a Dr. Seuss or Sesame Stree= t reference. I've had immersion in English for only two years: at age 8 and then later a= t age 14. The rest is from reading books and watching TV, and yet I can pass for a native, at least for a while. I do get the occasional moment of some missing vocabulary. I was talking to my father in law (American born, 40 years in this country, and definitely not fluent in Hebrew) and wanted to say something about my daughter's glasses. I wanted to say that the part that goes from the front of the fram= e all the way back to the ears is pink. I know what that part is called in Hebrew (=D7=99=D7=A6=D7=95=D7=9C), but I couldn't think of the word in Engl= ish. No wonder, how often do we get to talk about that? But I expect that someone who is immersed for a long time would have heard that it's called an "arm" or a "temple", and even if not, they, like me, can get away with "the part of th= e frame that goes from the front to the ear". I guess that's fluent enough, a= s long as you don't do it too often. --0015175cf8a0a82eaa0473b8e350 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Jesse Johnson <garand555@comcast.net= > wrote:
Hi,

My first post on the list. =C2=A0I decided to learn a little Lojban about 2= weeks ago. =C2=A0The idea of a language with grammar based on predicate lo= gic intrigues me.
To address what you are talking about, one of my coworkers in the past move= d to the US from Italy when he was 8 or 9 years old. =C2=A0He did not speak= one word of English when he arrived. =C2=A0He has no accent so most native= speakers do not realize that English is not his native tongue. =C2=A0What = gets him are some of the idioms. =C2=A0There were a few times when I used s= ome slang or some idiom and I'd get a blank stare, then a question abou= t what it meant. =C2=A0Those were the only times that his command of the En= glish language would indicate that he wasn't born here. =C2=A0His gramm= ar is better than mine.
Jesse Johnson

That his = grammar is better is no surprise. He's learned English along with the g= rammar, whereas you learned it by attempting to find patterns in the way ot= her people spoke.

With total immersion since age 8 or 9, I'm surprise= d he's missing idioms, but it does make sense that he would miss, say, = a Dr. Seuss or Sesame Street reference.

I've h= ad immersion in English for only two years: at age 8 and then later at age = 14. The rest is from reading books and watching TV, and yet I can pass for = a native, at least for a while.

I do get the occasional moment of some missing vocabula= ry. I was talking to my father in law (American born, 40 years in this coun= try, and definitely not fluent in Hebrew) and wanted to say something about= my daughter's glasses. I wanted to say that the part that goes from th= e front of the frame all the way back to the ears is pink. I know what that= part is called in Hebrew (=D7=99=D7=A6=D7=95=D7=9C), but I couldn't th= ink of the word in English. =C2=A0No wonder, how often do we get to talk ab= out that? =C2=A0But I expect that someone who is immersed for a long time w= ould have heard that it's called an "arm" or a "temple&q= uot;, and even if not, they, like me, can get away with "the part of t= he frame that goes from the front to the ear". I guess that's flue= nt enough, as long as you don't do it too often.
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