From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Oct 22 15:52:00 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N16Vj-0007UD-D4 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:51:59 -0700 Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.120]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N16Vf-0007Tf-MY for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:51:59 -0700 Received: (qmail 87856 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Oct 2009 22:51:45 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=5ixNL8FptxJXxpta8VRodVfw9Agtnd62o3/xGP2hWDdrampCDcbFK3H2KOYKaoog3caRyxeecx1pL+l6W6n4vacdUDJ6/lUG+HAyjqhr1ah5G2Kkpi6NfLCdNIjMLyaZyfqWmZo+INGHUc6oDuoh0V7pT20TT947jyQl2ikaLvE=; Message-ID: <873156.87816.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: yppFKW8VM1nK1_pNGXe5NuT376p2PXJD8LHG83zKqH1DlQbKd1PJd4MjS_0fnHP26ohvKwGT1SGJJt0y70t9TLZE_SEFcF6ZSxXSvWebpyjSiHp62O4dk4_RNBgapbzI.2oHTCzLY100N1h8fR.SgnIP1njc7I1QDZy2P_eLnjp4wPz22FiaLQVL0r_OhCfEh2.cru31PZokutIuCfF6wc_YDtw1STpI0DylNzPOCg6pvCHe41667tWyq5tCttbu2IDe17QCyqP5hV.nZW1g0aPvP1QSXje5UrjUG4QtnzrmKKSWmXnhW4qsjR8Gi0TH9yasnltKNL67Pv7kwGVW_qFBQyumXoBUJ4rvjvUuvMRCWxAKvtN.Giw8Y2464Ff9T6dKT2ochHZZ.ypmRnjrqAL9vtmHOATIgnQG4jyEbF5FrlidgEqRu9td Received: from [71.81.138.77] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:51:45 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/182.10 YahooMailWebService/0.7.347.3 References: <5715b9300910221536o6c0b268fr5317e25634f1edc9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:51:45 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: vagueness vs ambiguity To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <5715b9300910221536o6c0b268fr5317e25634f1edc9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1818682830-1256251905=:87816" X-archive-position: 16386 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0-1818682830-1256251905=:87816 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The old logic joke is that ambiguity means having too many meanings and vagueness means not having enough. That is, an ambiguous expression has two or more clear cut meanings where as a vague one has one very murky meaning (no sharp boundaries, lots of wiggle room). As for Lojban, it is not markedly more vague than other languages nor less semantically ambiguous either (like your case below). What it is is monoparsed, that is, there is only one grammatically correct way to read a sentence. All other attempted readings are ultimately ungrammatical. Within that framework, however, any level of vagueness or semantic ambiguity is possible (and probably occurs). (The questions of whether there is a language that speakers actually speak or writers write that has this property of monoparsing which the theoretical language of the grammar has is somewhat open still.) ________________________________ From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-list@lojban.org Sent: Thu, October 22, 2009 5:36:56 PM Subject: [lojban] vagueness vs ambiguity So I've heard people say in the past "lojban is vague, but it is not ambiguous". But what is the difference exactly? "John and Jim played a game. He lost". I've heard this example used to explain how english is "ambiguous". But how is this different from {la djan joi la djim kelci lo lo nunkei .i ra toljinga} which I guess is "ambiguous"? --0-1818682830-1256251905=:87816 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

The old logic joke is that ambiguity means having too many meanings and vagueness means not having enough. That is, an ambiguous expression has two or more clear cut meanings where as a vague one has one very murky meaning (no sharp boundaries, lots of wiggle room). As for Lojban, it is not markedly more vague than other languages nor less semantically ambiguous either (like your case below). What it is is monoparsed, that is, there is only one grammatically correct way to read a sentence. All other attempted readings are ultimately ungrammatical. Within that framework, however, any level of vagueness or semantic ambiguity is possible (and probably occurs). (The questions of whether there is a language that speakers actually speak or writers write that has this property of monoparsing which the theoretical language of the grammar has is somewhat open still.)

From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Thu, October 22, 2009 5:36:56 PM
Subject: [lojban] vagueness vs ambiguity

So I've heard people say in the past "lojban is vague, but it is not ambiguous". But what is the difference exactly?

"John and Jim played a game. He lost". I've heard this example used to explain how english is "ambiguous". But how is this different from {la djan joi la djim kelci lo lo nunkei .i ra toljinga} which I guess is "ambiguous"?

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