From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Oct 27 07:25:25 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 27 Oct 2009 07:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N2mzF-00089x-9H for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 07:25:25 -0700 Received: from mail-yx0-f202.google.com ([209.85.210.202]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N2mzB-0007zZ-MV for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 07:25:24 -0700 Received: by yxe40 with SMTP id 40so170004yxe.28 for ; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 07:25:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=rRvwkHrfUybDYJzXfRl9apUItDXLYmTsw3UcAaXO6SU=; b=lXjrB/y0NjeO+GgpAh49ju6LnRzJSqFMZdbXUiOztYzRjXcjILrEApZ1Lsk4CmPRXW X9oIbE89NnXXKed8vsrsq8MZ6Vq80qeZGKMAGAy0/FOaiKiG/Ueh7LkmPIMAVDneYwO5 iKZ7reOQguEaLot2m5Y2k+TSEA+at0r9+LYrU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=r/8b9Sa+zJzgXMif3OnL7TTuDEVPvFTzsajrvb9QSfLmC6ezDZROOMs6gixG4d5CxL 64sMEqW8uGFF1c7co4r2UahHcOZWryfEuiF5g1AQ9MBpGGcMb74JGPrqG81hYjvRKSaf DkicNsKUwgwmkSV/gfNlEzYzaM4RhYijto1lw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.91.141.6 with SMTP id t6mr6374713agn.49.1256653515323; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 07:25:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:25:15 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17560910270725r57074f54i4823395343a9acd1@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: djuno lo jei From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-archive-position: 16396 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 2:57 AM, Thomas Jack wrote: > > I think I would want to translate "I know whether Frank is a fool" as > {mi djuno lo du'u makau jei la frank cu bebna} Yes, that corresponds to the direct question: ma jei la frank cu bebna What is the truth value of Frank being a fool? but normally one would just ask: xu la frank bebna Is Frank a fool? So a more straightforward way for the indirect question is: mi djuno lo du'u xu kau la frank cu bebna I know whether frank is a fool. > In general, given a sumti in a top-level bridi (certainly not > abstracted, and perhaps there are other ways to get out of the > "top-level", I dunno), and given that we have an identity statement > about that sumti, can we substitute salva veritate in the original > bridi? I would say yes. > I feel like we should be able to. For example if {da broda} is > true, and {da du de} is true, then {de broda} should also be true. How about putting it this way: if {ko'a broda} is true, and {ko'a du ko'e} is true, then {ko'e broda} should also be true. The problem with using "da" and "de" is that they are variables bound by quantifiers, and so your way of putting it could mean different things depending on what scope you have in mind for the quantifiers. Probably you are thinking of "ro da ro de zo'u" with scope over your whole English statement, which is a weird mix. If we are just considering the Lojban, we have: su'o da zo'u da broda Something is a broda. su'o da su'o de zo'u da du de Something is equal to something. su'o de zo'u de broda Something is a broda. If the first one is true, so is the third one, since they say exactly the same thing, just using different variables, and the second one is trivially true but irrelevant. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.