From kali9putra@yahoo.com Fri Dec 18 19:46:54 2009 Received: from web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.122]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NLqHJ-0006hU-UC for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:46:54 -0800 Received: (qmail 32341 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Dec 2009 03:46:42 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1261194402; bh=MX1gMOsnbzWjzR/+N2lzRR0JARqkiP44gb9vMK1NF+k=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=CoCtDchUHLw9I8ZDg8UjcboZ/I8+rbxbUrYh+1+TrbnMspuC5KJMXR/DlVGKfr9p9YJ2sLPAG0fQf00vUJW8gwAvUriDjtXhyocE13CRXQoubDayZxbbmsMHKziIEbGd7DfWL52ZZuHfGgIASwwRkXFb2yJpVmcmnp8HV1K1bdE= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=urp9Gl89otNSHx+MLSSu851Pgr8Gcuupd0unu4iwKbogskGa4wfqDdrfLnV0fAAT9lqWlhXsoYbS9cI9K1zVYdoOTPMmtQLQ9KZ4+47Ft1KXrUJVog9J8v4Ebbq+JgOvXtmMrMKjpJTfCGuEo3vPGknc0nTUrGe+kiJxI0PLtDI=; Message-ID: <890001.32137.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: QeITH3gVM1n9P1l0u9SjLvgkVn4nKiuh.s2dIt5pIP4MgVelE1hPwEggj10igO4e8bBBbepR_sMeI90SUCb4uvfjFXUNPmRw1uuwfzJV2A8ayyEacqbqKs.j0e.0ZM_tkZaNk7CziCuLuj416KxofSlDTlbNu46ciC1j3Jp_8Csppv8Dwq3CISVfiYKVOf7pzuncj4ZWJYanBKk9hQE2Bl_EMJhogkD3TWu1e1n0nKvPLISxOgrLJVTjjc7DGfZcg5UtKHEDcCstK6Ucx.hVsBbmEdiUoRQNd5ZmIMK4UaKS7_iQUMjbjHQVAFvy9phyvDIbjfCjoaKoB6IaNQdo3JMF1WEQLKilUl8dQVhpWIvsr6Wm568W_tDv Received: from [71.81.138.77] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:46:42 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/240.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <8a20e9f70912181024t29e56190u762c85c8373e0c6a@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560912181211o485199adj246be26f7ce5e368@mail.gmail.com> <8a20e9f70912181227j40b5b65didcef9b757ce87df0@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560912181357y2ba48da3rf9190d51c3ed9690@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560912181518i133ea386s336a99cbc23fbf6a@mail.gmail.com> <8a20e9f70912181616q662f6f1fv106a73480a82fb4c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:46:42 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: The New Method To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <8a20e9f70912181616q662f6f1fv106a73480a82fb4c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Just a passing thought but maybe, after fifty five years of ever more arcane terminology (rarely well-defined -- or even consistently), it might be time to go back to standard terminology from Logic or Linguistics (or, practically, both) and do the whole thing -- now that we have some notion of what the whole thing is -- right. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jameson Orndorff To: lojban-list@lojban.org Sent: Fri, December 18, 2009 6:16:58 PM Subject: [lojban] Re: The New Method > I don't see the advantage of holding off on "cu". Forgetting "cu" is > probably the most common mistake that beginners make. I think the best > way to present terminators is to write sentences initially as "lo > mlatu [ku] cu blabi [vau]", showing both that the terminator is there, > and that it is elidable. Or maybe I just like that method because > that's how they were taught to me, and it always seemed very clear. I can buy that. Different things definitely work for different people. I'm sure some of my personal experience (and thus bias) has leaked into my method of teaching - I've been dodging the things that were hard to grasp at first. It may not be necessarily easier to learn terminators how I teach them, but it sure has been easier for me to teach them how I teach them. :) The whole tanru-unit-maybe-a-selbri-but-not-really-one thing has been a sticking point. I like this new method but it does still seem to be a little bit disingenuous in teaching what selbri *actually* are. Adam was certainly better at explaining what I was trying to get at than I was. (Thanks, xalbo!) > If we had enough students, we could try a lot of variations. Teaching the > terminators as an actual part of the construct, which can in some cases be > omitted if doing so doesn't cause a different parse, does seem to produce much > better results than teaching them as something extra that needs to be added at > odd times. I'm trying my best to recruit {rau tadni}! I think a solid community effort and a bit of testing and flexibility can put our current collective efforts into a coherent and solid teaching medium. While I may be championing it, I'm definitely not the only man behind the movement. (As much as I'd like to take credit for it...) xalbo, donri, all of my other co-teachers and of course my ever-so-patient students deserve just as much credit as I do. Thanks everyone for your feedback on the structure! Anyone have any comments about the layout idea I had for the website? 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