From phma@phma.optus.nu Thu Jan 28 10:14:44 2010 Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NaYt2-0005fD-Kl for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:14:43 -0800 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=0dbv4n-o1bQA:10 a=93sGSlfXg2sDGcQMUgwA:9 a=6JuwRapgFp8USJKM-xQA:7 a=cbhrgPuuwEv3N8Zb1r6zcrxXVFwA:4 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 71.71.198.100 Received: from [71.71.198.100] ([71.71.198.100:59635] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 80/39-01403-604D16B4; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:14:30 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ABCCD681 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:14:29 -0500 (EST) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: camxes's reaction to some fu'ivla Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:14:11 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <201001222242.21483.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201001250241.06895.phma@phma.optus.nu> <925d17561001250546s4da8f2a5je3c505e39735cf4c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <925d17561001250546s4da8f2a5je3c505e39735cf4c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <201001281314.13744.phma@phma.optus.nu> On Monday 25 January 2010 08:46:54 Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > We should probably make a list of outstanding issues. The ones that > come to mind are: Can you give examples of words affected by these issues? Preferably meaning= ful=20 or found in the Book. > (1) Syllable onsets: > > (a) Is the empty onset allowed or not? This affects vowel clusters > such as "oa", "aa", etc. in fu'ivla, which require an empty onset for > the second vowel. I think it should be. The example "bangrkorea" is in the refgram. > (b) Are Ci/Cu onsets permitted in fu'ivla? Are CCi/CCu onsets > permitted? Are CCCi/CCCu onsets permitted? Are 'i/'u onsets permitted? > > (c) Can i/u be onsets if the nucleus is a diphthong? (a.k.a. are > triphthongs allowed?) There's one occurrence of a triphthong in the refgram, but no list of valid= =20 triphthongs. > (2) Syllable codas: how many consonants are allowed in a syllable > coda? If more than one, are there any special restrictions? I think it should be two, with the restriction that if there are two, the=20 first has to be in the set {r,n,l,m}. My made-up example is "tarksako"; the= =20 one in the Book is "bongnanba". If "tarksako" is disallowed, I could go=20 with "traksako" or "tarsako" (or "cinfydenspa"). I tried various versions of these and could not figure out what rule camxes= is=20 using. It allows "tarkmako" but not "tarksako", even though both "ks"=20 and "km" are allowed medially but not initially. Similarly "bongnanba" but= =20 not "bongbanba". > (3) Syllable nuclei: (I don't think there are any issues here.) > > (4) cmevla: Are the constraints for cmevla less strict than for > fu'ivla (the ones mentioned above in particular.) I think that a cmevla should be allowed to end with any consonant cluster t= hat=20 is permitted medially in a brivla. > Anything else? damskrima: vlatai rejects this, both camxes and valfendi allow it. Max length of consonant clusters. It is possible to make an infinitely long= =20 string of consonants, all pairs of which are initial, such as "ststst...". What should be counted as a cmavo for purposes of falling off the head of a= =20 brivla? I consider it to be any sequence consisting of at least one vowel,= =20 possibly with apostrophes between vowels, and possibly preceded by a=20 consonant. Thus "tioprano" breaks up, even though there is no actual=20 cmavo "tio". Pierre =2D-=20 I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.