From jjllambias@gmail.com Thu Jan 28 11:15:42 2010 Received: from mail-bw0-f215.google.com ([209.85.218.215]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NaZq2-00033H-A4 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:15:41 -0800 Received: by bwz7 with SMTP id 7so316729bwz.26 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:15:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=zRudKJnF3Qy9Egm3E7/edXdtBrHkBvNtMpz8CFEV9wA=; b=l8xD9Cw5Bv0k5AkACUUAV7MODIJEihHo2amhJLL9H0uDC2muvwgKs3eTgQa39M43XQ JlW52N3GXUxwVfz149jxtZaE6q29ZxGmx2zboJFDht5yCSTMGFEhnUslkPXqI0cX9Vls GgvIlcMuezm3TTG6x9ZDukCYFYmWrGuvLt6Zo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=a2R2bFxMptCuQOHWL0uK6SC2PqpRHuxGknqrMoeCVD96knufvKlcmODh+/RnvpCDTD qqoPHW8rDbvfaqw2kYEF/qbJLI4guOYQs0gd5o0Cjx2c5i+Hg167EBGiUh4uTTjVLk4N CnQ2rc9sV+xXMQALzNx16baGAIlR0eWu7gw7k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.18.137 with SMTP id w9mr1028798bka.132.1264706126958; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:15:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201001281314.13744.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <201001222242.21483.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201001250241.06895.phma@phma.optus.nu> <925d17561001250546s4da8f2a5je3c505e39735cf4c@mail.gmail.com> <201001281314.13744.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:15:25 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17561001281115w4c831da7lda733ba44757a92b@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: camxes's reaction to some fu'ivla From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Monday 25 January 2010 08:46:54 Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > >> (1) Syllable onsets: >> >> (a) Is the empty onset allowed or not? This affects vowel clusters >> such as "oa", "aa", etc. in fu'ivla, which require an empty onset for >> the second vowel. > > I think it should be. The example "bangrkorea" is in the refgram. Yes, though John Cowan has said he regrets having included it, so we could eventually consider it an erratum. The argument against such clusters is the very existence of the apostrophe in Lojban: Loglan allowed those clusters, Lojban introduced the apostrophe for the sole purpose of breaking up those clusters, and then Lojban reintroduces those clusters again, such as "ea" to compete against "e'a" and "eia"? It doesn't make a lot of sense. >> (b) Are Ci/Cu onsets permitted in fu'ivla? Are CCi/CCu onsets >> permitted? Are CCCi/CCCu onsets permitted? Are 'i/'u onsets permitted? Some examples from jbovlaste: ab,nie,na sar,gue,ia per,vu,'ui krio,fla I don't find any example with CCCi/CCCu but I only made a superficial check= . camxes should accept the first two, but not the last two. >> (c) Can i/u be onsets if the nucleus is a diphthong? (a.k.a. are >> triphthongs allowed?) > > There's one occurrence of a triphthong in the refgram, but no list of val= id > triphthongs. The list in any case is limited to the eight: iai, iau, iei, ioi, uai, uau, uei, uoi. It wouldn't make sense to allow some but not all of them, or to allow any more than those, given the list of diphthongs already allowed. For example allowing "iai" but not "iau" would not make sense, or allowing "ieu" as a triphthong given that "eu" is not allowed as a diphthong would not make sense. >> (2) Syllable codas: =A0how many consonants are allowed in a syllable >> coda? If more than one, are there any special restrictions? > > I think it should be two, with the restriction that if there are two, the > first has to be in the set {r,n,l,m}. My made-up example is "tarksako"; t= he > one in the Book is "bongnanba". If "tarksako" is disallowed, I could go > with "traksako" or "tarsako" (or "cinfydenspa"). > > I tried various versions of these and could not figure out what rule camx= es is > using. It allows "tarkmako" but not "tarksako", even though both "ks" > and "km" are allowed medially but not initially. Similarly "bongnanba" bu= t > not "bongbanba". That's odd indeed. It should disallow all of them. It appears as if it was allowing tar,km,a,ko and bon,gn,an,ba but I don't see why. A consonantal syllable should not be able to be followed by a syllable without an onset. Maybe the implementation of camxes you are using is not based on the current morphology as it appears in http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+PEG+Morphology+Algorithm (or maybe I'm missing something there.) >> (3) Syllable nuclei: (I don't think there are any issues here.) >> >> (4) cmevla: Are the constraints for cmevla less strict than for >> fu'ivla (the ones mentioned above in particular.) > > I think that a cmevla should be allowed to end with any consonant cluster= that > is permitted medially in a brivla. If weird codas are allowed for the last syllable, shouldn't they be allowed for any syllable, rather than just the last one? >> Anything else? > > damskrima: vlatai rejects this, both camxes and valfendi allow it. Right, three valid syllables: dam,skri,ma > Max length of consonant clusters. It is possible to make an infinitely lo= ng > string of consonants, all pairs of which are initial, such as "ststst..."= . camxes does not allow the combination of ts/tc/dz/dj with other consonants in an onset. The only consonant-cluster onsets that it accepts (besides those four) must fall within the pattern: (s,c,z,j) (p,t,k,f,x,b,d,g,v,m,n) (r,l) so the maximum length for an onset is three consonants. > What should be counted as a cmavo for purposes of falling off the head of= a > brivla? I consider it to be any sequence consisting of at least one vowel= , > possibly with apostrophes between vowels, and possibly preceded by a > consonant. Thus "tioprano" breaks up, even though there is no actual > cmavo "tio". camxes does the same thing, it considers "tio" a cmavo form even though there are no actual such cmavo. A good argument could be made against considering these as valid cmavo forms though, since otherwise they would seem to be preferrable over the longer CVhV forms. (That is in fact the reason camxes does not consider "tio" a valid rafsi form.) mu'o mi'e xorxes