From lukeabergen@gmail.com Wed Jan 13 08:58:54 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f200.google.com ([209.85.221.200]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NV6YS-0001wy-H5 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:58:54 -0800 Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38so3076032qyk.25 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:58:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=AzMILk3xC4BSEAvCAF2BaUpy2fQuDeGPhICLI7ePlTY=; b=hQbfVRVXWfhdCVkAx4Ip9f9+oq7BzQixNVarl2kEJDL0ASzwLzEwKg735Z5riuxdWM sFB8MZm1+TnatdE98mEYsjQojG+rbnSxaZyK5oqIsV3+k6htvjhcV6F/ZQs5MQ1zBhrw Fm7CADVV3XNlpKhCOrjus8yA2kJ+eLLteanGA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=UleikFGhxQBfsaLmEdYptyrV2GWso0oulI87987r6VYFm9EwnNauqSe2NY7j+wnhlj PD8HGANlhk1X6l5rwbH6cuTTbRfHDCBCGUgPCL9wOmIAxGOme7ro8daVw/jiGSrCRx3f yosq78jPXezDQ9d4OPA4DGfuvlyoyNhpVZKbk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.128.76 with SMTP id j12mr74406vcs.31.1263401921845; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:58:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <96f789a61001130846s10f70fcu5b8ae923c0ff3a95@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9301001121232t715e8e69n265381f070ded8ce@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301001121321x3878127cwb56e277b8878756f@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561001121405o460c9b12k6decf80e3a044387@mail.gmail.com> <201001122213.19312.phma@phma.optus.nu> <925d17561001130429h731200edsd3b29fd0e5ffdc0d@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301001130620n761fbe94j534f41fc6e52908d@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301001130631x23424333r17eeecbcfafd1a9d@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a61001130846s10f70fcu5b8ae923c0ff3a95@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:58:41 -0500 Message-ID: <5715b9301001130858j762848e6x1ccf8b4aaa021802@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: shifting in tanru From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016368e2d27c29ade047d0eae15 --0016368e2d27c29ade047d0eae15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Right. I get it. Thanks for your help everyone. On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > > > actually, after reading a bit more closely. xorxes, how do you get that > only the first sumti goes into the selbri? I read: > >> Any sumti which precede a selbri with an inverted tanru fill the places >> of the selbri (i.e., the places of the tertau) in the ordinary way. >> In Example 8.4, ``mi'' fills the x1 place of ``troci co klama'', which is >> the x1 place of ``troci''. The other places of the selbri remain unfilled. >> The trailing sumti ``le zarci'' and ``le zdani'' do not occupy selbri >> places, despite appearances. >> > > to mean that {ko'a ko'e broda brode ko'i} to mean that ko'a AND ko'e BOTH > go into broda and ko'i goes into x2 of brode. > > Notice what the example quoted said, that example 8.4 ("mi troci co klama > le zarci le zdani") > is the same as example 8.3: > > 8.3) mi klama be le zarci bei le zdani be'o >> troci >> I am-a-(goer to the market from the house) >> type-of trier. >> I try to go to the market from the house. >> > > In other words, the le zarci and le zdani are bound to the klama as if by > be and bei, despite those cmavo not appearing. They are not considered to > be filling places in the bridi, whose relationship is the tanru "troci co > klama" (which I feel is counterintuitive, btw). Remember also that a tanru > is simply the modified version of the tertau. In other words, a cmalu gerku > is a gerku. Period. It just happens to be a small one So whether you put > arguments before or after "cmalu gerku" they are the places of gerku, not of > cmalu (unless they are lined to cmalu explicitly with internal > be/bei/be'o). Similarly, this is exactly the same as a "gerku co cmalu". > This is a type of gerku, not smalu. The only difference is that arguments > AFTER are considered to be be/bei'd to the "cmalu". > > --gejyspa > > --0016368e2d27c29ade047d0eae15 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right. =A0I get it. =A0Thanks for your help everyone. =A0

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail= .com> wrote:


On Wed, Jan 13, 2= 010 at 9:31 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> actually, after reading a bit more closely. =A0xorxes, how do = you get that only the first sumti goes into the selbri? =A0I read:
=A0Any sumti which prec= ede a selbri with an inverted tanru fill the places of the selbri (i.e., th= e places of the tertau) in the ordinary way. In=A0Example 8.4, ``mi'= 9; fills the x1 place of ``troci co klama'', which is the x1 place = of ``troci''. The other places of the selbri remain unfilled. The t= railing sumti ``le zarci'' and ``le zdani'' do not occupy s= elbri places, despite appearances.
> to mean that {ko'a ko'e broda brode ko'i} to = mean that ko'a AND ko'e BOTH go into broda and ko'i goes into x= 2 of brode.

=A0 Notice what the example quoted said, that exam= ple 8.4=A0("mi troci co klama le zarci le zdani")
is=A0 the same as example 8.3:

8.3) =A0mi klama be le zarci bei le zdani be'o
=A0= =A0 =A0 =A0troci
=A0 =A0I am-a-(goer to the market from the house)
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0type-= of trier.
=A0 =A0I try to go to the market from the house.

=A0In other words, the le zarci and le zdani are bound to the klam= a as if by be and bei, despite those cmavo=A0 not appearing.=A0 They are no= t considered to be filling places in the bridi, whose relationship is the t= anru "troci co klama" (which I feel is counterintuitive, btw).=A0= Remember also that a tanru is simply the modified version of the tertau.= =A0 In other words, a cmalu gerku is a gerku.=A0 Period.=A0 It just happens= to be a small one So whether you put arguments before or after "cmalu= gerku" they are the places of gerku, not of cmalu (unless they are li= ned to cmalu explicitly with internal be/bei/be'o).=A0 Similarly, this = is exactly the same as a "gerku co cmalu".=A0 This is a type of g= erku, not smalu.=A0 The only difference is that arguments AFTER are conside= red to be be/bei'd to the "cmalu".

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa

=20

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