From phma@phma.optus.nu Sun Feb 07 20:30:40 2010 Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NeLGb-0000S4-Kx for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 07 Feb 2010 20:30:40 -0800 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=0dbv4n-o1bQA:10 a=8YJikuA2AAAA:8 a=xxkbbjKHvKBYzuo6va4A:9 a=Oo_TFZar0Kcuck1cI6TQCQvXD88A:4 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 71.71.198.100 Received: from [71.71.198.100] ([71.71.198.100:37991] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id F7/28-28731-2639F6B4; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 04:30:27 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A6716044 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 23:30:25 -0500 (EST) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: camxes's reaction to some fu'ivla Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 23:29:47 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <201001222242.21483.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201001281314.13744.phma@phma.optus.nu> <925d17561001281115w4c831da7lda733ba44757a92b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <925d17561001281115w4c831da7lda733ba44757a92b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <201002072329.52057.phma@phma.optus.nu> On Thursday 28 January 2010 14:15:25 Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > Some examples from jbovlaste: > > ab,nie,na > sar,gue,ia > per,vu,'ui > krio,fla Also "niengatu", which is related to abniena ("nien" means "language" in bo= th=20 languages; I've thought of calling the language family "bangrniena"). Is there any indication in the Book that the initial "i" or "u" in a diphth= ong=20 is considered part of the onset. > I don't find any example with CCCi/CCCu but I only made a superficial > check. camxes should accept the first two, but not the last two. How about "skriabino"? Or "striato"? Not that they've actually been defined= ,=20 but they're plausible. Another example of Ci onset is "spatrxapio". Valfend= i=20 considers all of those valid. > That's odd indeed. It should disallow all of them. It appears as if it > was allowing tar,km,a,ko and bon,gn,an,ba but I don't see why. A > consonantal syllable should not be able to be followed by a syllable > without an onset. > > Maybe the implementation of camxes you are using is not based on the > current morphology as it appears in > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+PEG+Morphology+Algorithm > (or maybe I'm missing something there.) I downloaded it from a link someone gave me on IRC. How do I find out what= =20 version it is? Here's another question to consider: Should a coda be allowed after a=20 consonantal nucleus? My example is "bangrgbe" (some African languages, name= d=20 for their word for "language"). Both vlatai and valfendi accept it; camxes= =20 doesn't. Valfendi, when asked to syllabify it, says "BA,ngrgbe", but I'd=20 say "BAN,grg,be". (In Gbe, the "gb" is one sound.) > If weird codas are allowed for the last syllable, shouldn't they be > allowed for any syllable, rather than just the last one? Chapter 4 contains the name "tcarlz", which ends in three consonants,=20 and "ralj" as an example of a cmevla formed from the long rafsi of a gismu.= =20 If any long or CVC rafsi is allowed to be used as a cmevla (except ones tha= t=20 begin with "la" - so how do we name lakes?), then "rafs" and "datk" should = be=20 valid cmene. Some real-world names that end in clusters that can occur=20 medially are "Minsk" and "Yakutsk". What about cmevla beginning with clusters that aren't allowed initially in = a=20 brivla, such as "mkyveix"? > camxes does not allow the combination of ts/tc/dz/dj with other > consonants in an onset. The only consonant-cluster onsets that it > accepts (besides those four) must fall within the pattern: > > (s,c,z,j) (p,t,k,f,x,b,d,g,v,m,n) (r,l) > > so the maximum length for an onset is three consonants. Where did you get this set of clusters from? Pierre =2D-=20 Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar.