From pascal.akihiko@gmail.com Sun Mar 07 10:55:20 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f222.google.com ([209.85.220.222]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NoLdC-0006ZE-9D for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 10:55:19 -0800 Received: by fxm22 with SMTP id 22so1466781fxm.26 for ; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 10:55:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=B5fDFiGmOZWF60d+kx/2NA7Pn9xgG75aJTLpBnLxgU8=; b=QOkDc6u8DqldtHmsctQjX6IkyhM4xnuS1FgiYAuf6OTYgrukglhLUbFQ5Y5bKRQ4KK e0g2yRwhI9Pm0Rv+nzxJ4ks5y0RnmkMONNdjY6MO0xB7KsGZt0/n+z3Nfxc00kg0rwGR 1Q2/ZqjAedKVoypMoCUa46RBc9AlzEsidrGHA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; b=eBQwyQ6ANOeX2IyMpFDkyka2fhrVAj6aWDvg3r/qcuQJ67P0hdCoYpD4XNkUqJdSPf alz9wxgWYCzwTu5SxTGw2OFRYFsnT9vpSMXQ96WH+TlC+MLbKTN9xb9DW+c3e6nZ3m0X UjcmxGb++EUBe9vQ6uTKKuAwIt6Tw6JfQ8FUw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: pascal.akihiko@gmail.com Received: by 10.223.17.92 with SMTP id r28mr4313121faa.91.1267988107257; Sun, 07 Mar 2010 10:55:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 18:55:07 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 10da3bfe13b9fb09 Message-ID: <4de8c3931003071055y5142a443nfa9ea6b0ce478dc9@mail.gmail.com> Subject: transitive & intransitive From: tijlan To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 The gimste says about "sance": [x2 sounds (intransitive verb)] Since an intransitive verb has by definition only one core argument, this usage of "sance" would have to preclude the syntactic (not semantic) existence of "sance"s other argument, x1. Its mere nonpresence on the surface of the sentence wouldn't suffice, due to the persistence of the original/official place structure. One way to deal with this is erasing the argument from the place structure with "zi'o": zi'o lo janbe pu sance (the bell sounded) However, "zi'o" effects also semantic change; this example comes to imply that the bell sounded without a sound. Which I don't think is the general purpose of intransitive verbs. When we use "swim" intransitively in contrast to the transitive one, we don't usually mean the act of swimming without fluid in contrast to the act of swimming with fluid; but this is what we would mean when we say in Lojban "limna zi'o". So, what form of bridi is the abvoe gimste note on "sance" assuming to be intransitive? mu'o mi'e tijlan