From jjllambias@gmail.com Fri Mar 12 08:09:52 2010 Received: from mail-bw0-f219.google.com ([209.85.218.219]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Nq7Qp-00088a-8r for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:09:51 -0800 Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so1228125bwz.26 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:09:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Mt/FqTbATE6526voFJv8ZL56LOPZUXkX4RB+NfV6m2I=; b=xd1HlRLX5rLrN/P4n1aI5tqmVtIFEgpo6ubxS/OY6Uut0VtCZyxgUZ5iJFE5VtHpKs KfjT83JfqEbvyDoOVK5SUKyJQFaYo/NKrNMud4857Zj/BTmswWmztIsg0UzY7wUypdfu l3x7sizXpvJVatx7+5h980nCjwiHEMfXevQeM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=TUHnpAvpY4E7BXJBn/UYM5V/Z1wNhKMvPfAB6+2T1ybARRYAzjRgQGdnOx1+Fu0iLb uMZgd/axSwP/N+lsBTNOgtlq5ArrTd6gLa230y8VAF71SxQpZujL1i+NwFgnLGMGh/lR rRMeKLLT1igBFWa7VbARTUDfuIIB4OjYQ8Cac= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.34.201 with SMTP id m9mr1989108bkd.118.1268410180500; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:09:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <702226df1003120753m45775e2avc18bf50b6bcff585@mail.gmail.com> References: <925d17561003120510w5268cea2sdbf61cc89932839d@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a61003120602s47cb9b94p20cf5cbd9776990c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003120611x3f71d5baydd1a8019b336eddb@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003120753m45775e2avc18bf50b6bcff585@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 13:09:40 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17561003120809g5755999cyb212c520d82fb69@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: cusku - say or express? From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > The keyword of bacru is "utter", because "orgle-borgle", "squeak", and ot= her > such onomatopeia are all utterances. Yes. > A creaky door is a=A0valid {lo bacru}, Not quite. "bacru" is for linguistic utterances. For non-linguistic utterances there's "cmoni", which is mostly what animals do, a door is more of a "se sance" than a "cmoni" or a "bacru". Metaphorically, I'd prefer to go with "cmoni" for the door, but "bacru" could do as well. > but it is not a valid {lo cusku}. Literally, a door can neither bacru nor cusku, since it doesn't have a vocal tract or a mind. Metaphorically, the sky is the limit. >=A0I think the salient difference is that {lo > se cusku} is something imparting meaning, whereas {lo se bacru} is merely > some sort of noise. "lo se cusku" can be written or signed, "lo se bacru" has to be uttered. It is not just any noise, it has to be linguistic sound. > I do agree with Robin that "express" is a better keyword than "say", not > because "say" doesn't work, but because it is misleading. "Express" is more misleading, since we express ideas, not words. We say wor= ds. > Someone learning > that {cusku} means "x1 says x2 ...." will very probably assume that this > means only verbal expression of a concept, which is not true of {cusku}. Why would anyone assume that? You can say something in writing or by signing just as well as verbally. > However, {bacru} is definitely not "say". Right. > If we want to fiddle with > semantics, the appropriate lojbo valsi (IMO) for "say" would be {ba'usku} > (bacru cusku): "x1 says (verbally expresses) x2 to x3 via medium x4" No need to fiddle. "ba'usku" is fine for "verbally say" but not so good for "verbally express". You don't verbally express words, you verbally express ideas. The x2 of cusku is text/words/signs, not ideas. mu'o mi'e xorxes