From jjllambias@gmail.com Sat Mar 13 12:17:52 2010 Received: from mail-bw0-f219.google.com ([209.85.218.219]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NqXmN-00012G-Tv for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:17:51 -0800 Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so2182325bwz.26 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:17:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=LF+/4xlWUkEw9WACrdFRyGonnrrwSckBi5nej18ZyTA=; b=cuHkcBCc/qfm43JPUleCi2fwS0N6vw3mEHxegExB9Z5WNsosp3kPP1862KcAzwkjh1 5jMqghB7NQJSeoSvbRrw9DFQbns2Q1MPIJGFwPIQFQO8Cz1KcBvcr7gTa3GkUYlMxfwg 3lI6ZMkV1oqA1xImTOmKLel6o8Pr7eTXlDDb0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=h9Hey6ARQbfTsRV6vFLoep/Pj9mbK0vXNNbcsbW1zhvNDQy8uE+6MD+D/K4NzBvk9e 04ni6tbJmdJg9cGpWudQHxkbCPaWF5/kzw4AZUMkly8w3G0bhfSZWxjRKhyU1zHM9TRE SU3wYx8EY+JzUHzmIBwby8uDmVSNRBo2odyhw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.6.203 with SMTP id a11mr3293206bka.33.1268511461434; Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:17:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <121832.27670.qm@web50401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <925d17561003120510w5268cea2sdbf61cc89932839d@mail.gmail.com> <20100312183050.GJ10385@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003121116t634e3b47xe5e4105e225ba491@mail.gmail.com> <20100312192042.GN10385@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003121145x53ade2a3sdf2c6d443cce8854@mail.gmail.com> <20100312195727.GO10385@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003121311m422cf3bbjf82ee369a9b6c33b@mail.gmail.com> <1268429293.26304.3.camel@thomas> <121832.27670.qm@web50401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 17:17:41 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17561003131217g518559e6u8af552f574a828d1@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: cusku - say or express? From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Lindar Greenwood wrote: > Personally, I don't understand why xorxes keeps trying to define Lojban i= n terms of other languages. What the expletive are you talking about? > Who gives a *insert colourful phrase here* what English or Spanish uses? = =A0Seriously... If the keyword is your biggest gripe, then just pick a new = keyword or pick more than one keyword. Exactly. Preferably the one that makes the most sense, not the one that makes the least sense. > What bothers me is that, like Sonja keeps doing, you're trying to arbitra= rily assign and map English words to Lojban words that don't have a direct = translation to English, and then slapping on the "GOOD ENOUGH" decal. Who is doing that? Ideally, Lojban words should be defined in Lojban, which is for example what I did when offering: ko'a bacru ko'e =3D ko'a cusku ko'e zi'o lo voksa > x1 (agent) expresses/says x2 (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) for audience x3 v= ia expressive medium x4. > > It seems that there's no one single word to describe this concept as it d= oesn't exist in English (the language for which we're trying to find a keyw= ord). Exactly right. All I'm saying is that "expresses" is a terrible keyword for "cusku", because what you express are ideas/emotions/feelings/concepts/etc., whereas you don't cusku any of those things, you cusku words/texts/signs/etc. > In Lojban, this word can be used to express (<--hah) that somebody is say= ing something, Yes, as in: da ca'o cusku de "Someone is saying something." > it can be used to say that somebody is expressing a concept which can be = expressed in a sentence (sedu'u), Yes, as in: da cusku lo se du'u carvi "Someone says that it's raining." > or even 'the symbol for...' (lu'e) in the case of hand gestures or any ot= her applicable situation. Yes, as in: da cusku lo se du'u carvi kei fo lo sinxa bangu "Someone says that it's raining using sign language." (You could use "lu'e lo du'u carvi" instead of "lo se du'u carvi", it's basically the same thing.) > This could even be used to describe expressive dance, body language or ot= her nonverbal communication, and any number of other strange concepts. Examples in Lojban please? > tavla... well, not gonna get into it, but it doesn't really say anything = about the method of communication, only that it's one-sided/agentive. Exactly. That's what I've been saying, right? > You completely forgot casnu, but that falls under the same domain. Doesn'= t really specify. "converse" You could basically define "casnu" in Lojban as: ko'a casnu ko'e =3D ko'a simxu lo ka ce'u tavla ce'u ko'e zi'o > So, every single 'communication word' we have doesn't specify verbal spee= ch in any way, and we have a word specifically for "expresses with language= -mouth-noises". Right. > Therefore, you can't really use words from English as we don't have these= concepts. What about "say", "talk", "discuss"? None of those specify spoken speech either. You can say something in writing or using sign language, you can talk about things in writing or using sign language, you can discuss stuff in writing (as we are doing now) or using sign language. Why are people focusing so much on the medium of communication? Most of these words don't care at all about the medium. > Perhaps "expressing" is the =A0best for cusku, regardless of whether or n= ot it makes sense in English That's nonsense. How can an English word that makes no sense for the concept in question be the best? > (because we're not speaking English, so what does it matter if it makes s= ense in English? Then "skropiuty" is much better than "express", since we are not speaking English. > [specifically targeting xorxes here]), [xorxes ducks] >because "expressing through interpretive dance", "expressing through sign-= language", "expressing through anecdote", "Expressing, 'I think we need mor= e beer.' through yelling like an idiot." makes just about as much sense as = you could possibly get through literal translation, keeping the same gloss = word for each example (rather than, 'interpretively danced...', 'signed...'= , etc.). Why not "saying through interpretive dance", "saying through sign-language", "saying through anecdote"? "Expressing" works so long as you don't say what it is you are expressing. Once you say that, it stops working, because you cusku the sinxa, but you express the se sinxa. You don't cusku the se sinxa, and you don't express the sinxa. > To illustrate my point, how do you gloss "lo blanu"? You can't, because t= here is NO English equivalent, at all, ever. Sure you can argue "a blue thi= ng" or just say "a blue", but "a blue thing" is "lo blanu co'e" and "a blue= " is incorrect English grammar. There will NEVER be a way to translate that= accurately to English, so you have to COMPROMISE. This is also what you ne= ed to do with all of these talking/expressing words, because they don't per= fectly map to English (and if they did, I wouldn't be learning Lojban, beca= use the point is to not map perfectly to English or we'd just be speaking E= nglish... or maybe Cockney...). I don't think anybody disagrees with that. That's no excuse for picking a very poor keyword though, especially when a much better one is immediately available. > So, you're both wrong. > xorxes: Stop trying to map everything to English words like Lojban works = that way. na'i. I can't stop trying to do something I never started in the first plac= e. > rlp: Make a better suggestion, then. He's the one that suggested "express", and I complained, so you have to tell me to make a better suggestion, not him. And I did: "say". "Say" is the closest match for "cusku", as close as you can get. "Express" is a very poor match. > The both of you: Stop wasting time arguing about arguing. At least 10 of = those e-mails were just you two arguing about the way you were arguing. Where? I thought we were all the time arguing about whether or not "express" is a good enough match for "cusku". > Huggles and loves for you both. Now, If you can't come to an agreement, t= hen I'm taking your toys away and you're both grounded for a week. We're no= t having a damn civil war over how to map things to English when you both k= now better. And just when we were starting to have fun, you spoilsport. > cusku - express > tavla - tell > casnu - converse > bacru - phonate > > There. Four whole words that can't be confused. > Do these work for the both of you? Of course not. Have you read anything I've been writing? "Express" is a terrible keyword for "cusku". You cusku words/text/signs, you express ideas/emotions/feelings/concepts. You cusku lo sinxa, you express lo se sinxa. See the difference? "Tell" is bad for "tavla", much worse than "talk". "Tell" is "jungau". You tell a proposition, you don't tavla/talk a proposition. The other two are fine, though "converse" can easily be mistaken for the adjective "converse", so I prefer "discuss", and "utter" or "pronounce" sound better to me than "phonate", simply because "phonate" is not a common word. mu'o mi'e xorxes