From eyeonus@gmail.com Sun Mar 14 07:28:20 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f181.google.com ([74.125.82.181]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Nqonb-0000i4-Ce for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:28:19 -0700 Received: by wyf28 with SMTP id 28so1341584wyf.40 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:28:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=yD3LR0zfwNv5u645yonCLxd2F4GJ9c2U7X6+8coEFEM=; b=MSPWaCPKnoVstQYDti2eKUYW9cis+G/FzJ3TvvklGcovalYv17j74aC279Y7nA5LwH CDRPAbzzgHsnj+qdbo+J8S0DC50NwD/lR0CZqJUX16IVYLj0UbKhQDelxVdCfSZ5eEOY y9ZFDNIaU56rlaoglBJQTpV7fqhZuTf8lH6TY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=oGuCz1TjrSwqEjglQdtnvUhObLFQjrnhDvWkSyQBreTObvEJnukaE/layyBUOOz8Vr 3sk3gmbHo/zJyTQRk6EmEXMxI+Ta7qz1pYdLAxWLqxbOiXqYhEAMBKyMRk09LJDx2e/A dtlbEujlUFiRZ+zWK96Akl+JIOR5kxHY3WVqs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.180.141 with SMTP id j13mr453944wem.227.1268576884142; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:28:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <702226df1003140717r7143e44fkeda492a41eab4ccc@mail.gmail.com> References: <925d17561003120510w5268cea2sdbf61cc89932839d@mail.gmail.com> <20100312183050.GJ10385@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003121116t634e3b47xe5e4105e225ba491@mail.gmail.com> <20100312192042.GN10385@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003121145x53ade2a3sdf2c6d443cce8854@mail.gmail.com> <20100312195727.GO10385@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003121311m422cf3bbjf82ee369a9b6c33b@mail.gmail.com> <1268429293.26304.3.camel@thomas> <20100313212857.GA25330@digitalkingdom.org> <702226df1003140717r7143e44fkeda492a41eab4ccc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:28:04 -0600 Message-ID: <702226df1003140728qab933d4x2b6aebfcb7ee7dd@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] A different way to do the flashcards (was Re: Re: cusku - say or express?) From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016367fa8438cb4e00481c392c8 --0016367fa8438cb4e00481c392c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just did a test and it appears that, as long as the card is not the same on both cue and response, it isn't a duplicate, so we needn't worry about "{lo cusku}->{an expresser}" being replaced by "{lo cusku}->{an expresser (place 1 of x1 expresses x2 for audience x3 via medium x4)}", which means doing both methods is perfectly workable. The proof: http://smart.fm/goals/179543 On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 8:17 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > I vote evolution (AKA survival of the fittest). > > Put up both methods, and let the users decide which they want to use to > learn. > > We've already got everything needed for the lesson as I envisioned it, an= d > I assume that you've uploaded most, if not all of the lesson items for it > already. > > I also assume that you could, with little effort, add the "place n of ...= ." > bit to the lessons. > > So, why not have both? > > On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Robin Lee Powell < > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > >> smart.fm actually *does* use whole phrases, like "an expresser" or >> "a sayer" for "lo cusku". >> >> What I'm wondering is if it shouldn't instead say "a sayer (place 1 >> of: x1 says x2 for audience x3 via expressive medium x4)". That is, >> have both the short form *and* the place structure. >> >> The big advantage there is that instead of saying "an audience of >> something said", we can say "an audience (place 3 of: x1 says x2 for >> audience x3 via expressive medium x4), which semems far more natural >> to me. Oddly. :) >> >> I've just tested with "lo te cusku", by the way, and even when stuff >> doesn't fit on a card proprerly, it looks fine in iKnow and Drill. >> Drill can't handle stuff much longer than "an audience for >> expression (place 3 of: x1 says x2 for audience x3 via expressive >> medium x4)", but it can handle that, and a few more words extra I >> expect, so it can probably handle this format in general. You can >> try http://smart.fm/goals/270376 to see what it looks like (test 5 >> is that phrase). >> >> -Robin >> >> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 04:28:13PM -0500, Robert Slaughter wrote: >> > On Fri, 2010-03-12 at 18:11 -0300, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: >> > >> > You and I already know well what "cusku" means, so whatever keyword >> > you choose won't affect you or me. If your argument is that English >> > speakers in general get confused about the meaning of "say", to the >> > extent that they can't readily distinguish it from "talk" without >> > context, well, maybe a single keyword is just not the answer. >> > >> > Looking over the discussion today, maybe this point made in passing >> by >> > xorxes should be reviewed. I've always though that the single keywo= rd >> > idea, as used in logflash (for example), was a weak match, but a >> short >> > key-phrase might work better for capturing the underlying meaning o= f >> the >> > lojban words -- nor just gismu, but the more troublesome cmavo as >> well. >> > >> > -- >> > Bob Slaughter, [1]rslauGUESS@WHATmindspring.com >> > [2]http://www.mindspring.com/~rslau/ >> > North Georgia Modurail: [3]http://www.trainweb.org/northgamodurail/ >> > "The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but >> because of those who look on and do nothing." -- Albert Einstein< >> > "The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be >> ruled by evil men." -- Plato >> > >> > References >> > >> > Visible links >> > 1. mailto:rslauGUESS@whatmindspring.com >> > 2. http://www.mindspring.com/~rslau/ >> > 3. http://www.trainweb.org/northgamodurail/ >> >> -- >> They say: "The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons." >> And I'm thinking: "Does it even occur to you to try for something >> other than the default outcome?" See http://shrunklink.com/cdiz >> http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to >> lojban-list-request@lojban.org >> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or i= f >> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. >> >> > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --0016367fa8438cb4e00481c392c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just did a test and it appears that, as long as the card is not the = same on both cue and response, it isn't a duplicate, so we needn't = worry about "{lo cusku}->{an expresser}" being replaced by &qu= ot;{lo cusku}->{an expresser (place=A01 of x1 expresses x2 for aud= ience x3 via medium x4)}", which means doing both methods is pe= rfectly workable.
=A0
The proof: http://smart.fm/go= als/179543

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 8:17 AM, Jonathan Jones = <eyeonus@gmail.co= m> wrote:
I vote evolution (AKA survival of the fittest).<= /div>
=A0
Put up both methods, and let the users decide wh= ich they want to use to learn.
=A0
We've already got=A0everything needed for th= e lesson as I envisioned it, and I assume that you've uploaded most, if= not all of the lesson items for it already.
=A0
I also assume that you could, with little effort= , add the "place=A0n of ...." bit to the lessons.
=A0
So, why not have both?
=A0
On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Robin Lee Powel= l <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
smart.fm actually *does* use whole phrases, like "a= n expresser" or
"a sayer" for "lo cusku".

What I'm wondering= is if it shouldn't instead say "a sayer (place 1
of: x1 says x= 2 for audience x3 via expressive medium x4)". =A0That is,
have both= the short form *and* the place structure.

The big advantage there is that instead of saying "an audience of<= br>something said", we can say "an audience (place 3 of: x1 says = x2 for
audience x3 via expressive medium x4), which semems far more natu= ral
to me. =A0Oddly. =A0:)

I've just tested with "lo te cusku&q= uot;, by the way, and even when stuff
doesn't fit on a card proprerl= y, it looks fine in iKnow and Drill.
Drill can't handle stuff much l= onger than "an audience for
expression (place 3 of: x1 says x2 for audience x3 via expressive
medium= x4)", but it can handle that, and a few more words extra I
expect,= so it can probably handle this format in general. =A0You can
try http://smart.fm/goals/= 270376 to see what it looks like (test 5
is that phrase).

-Robin

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 04:28:13PM -0= 500, Robert Slaughter wrote:
> =A0 =A0On Fri, 2010-03-12 at 18:11 -03= 00, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
>
> =A0You and I already know well = what "cusku" means, so whatever keyword
> =A0you choose won't affect you or me. If your argument is that Eng= lish
> =A0speakers in general get confused about the meaning of "= ;say", to the
> =A0extent that they can't readily distinguis= h it from "talk" without
> =A0context, well, maybe a single keyword is just not the answer.
&g= t;
> =A0 =A0Looking over the discussion today, maybe this point made = in passing by
> =A0 =A0xorxes should be reviewed. I've always tho= ugh that the single keyword
> =A0 =A0idea, as used in logflash (for example), was a weak match, but = a short
> =A0 =A0key-phrase might work better for capturing the under= lying meaning of the
> =A0 =A0lojban words -- nor just gismu, but the= more troublesome cmavo as well.
>
> --
> Bob Slaughter, [1]rslauGUESS@WHATmindspring.com
= > [2]htt= p://www.mindspring.com/~rslau/
> North Georgia Modurail: [3]http://ww= w.trainweb.org/northgamodurail/
> "The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil= , but because of those who look on and do nothing." -- Albert Einstein= <
> "The price good men pay for indifference to public affair= s is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato
>
> References
>
> =A0 =A0Visible links
> =A0 = =A01. mailto:rslauGUESS@whatmindspring.com
> =A0 =A02. http://www.mindspring.com/~rs= lau/
> =A0 =A03. http://www.trainweb.org/northgamodurail/

--
They = say: =A0"The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons."=
And I'm =A0thinking: =A0"Does it even occur to you to try for = something
other =A0than =A0the default =A0outcome?" =A0See http://shrunklink.com/cdiz
http://ww= w.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org=
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.




-- mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu




--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
<= br>.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

--0016367fa8438cb4e00481c392c8--