From eyeonus@gmail.com Sun Mar 14 14:32:21 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f53.google.com ([74.125.82.53]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NqvPz-0002zO-PQ for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:32:21 -0700 Received: by wwi17 with SMTP id 17so2160907wwi.40 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:32:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=SU2+QMITHQ2FuczGmARlKXJnxOsu4ODSlniKN3e/V0k=; b=r/6btTkSyVCj454qyCJu9t833a92yf+vr3i83j42oDic1yE8D9JfHwelW6g0254pzc 6tPR/7h62Nz8tPnTZwkutDotZEdOzU1ihjV/nqIy/1oOpYieqR2QC2I8jKeY9MMyaMme RMdBRTTmW7H1hVQqcxTTJvOJ1SvaG0AUjB0J0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=tRt2neON1NSstgzAOE458OaH3xpGoJxZVHt7hyq74OKSQYYGZG4nHVSY9MgCROuoIz y9FichOnPjLQE/qKOq9FdddFUhc7tzpFh+0643dtHjzTfS48AOaTUyG597ojsxBCv5E/ NNAdTCm845xbJDUYhcUCdO16hGjCGqY2qs4Io= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.86.14 with SMTP id v14mr46339wee.183.1268602328912; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:32:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <925d17561003141351t4ef5dc11r69e8ec60b5d55651@mail.gmail.com> References: <925d17561003120510w5268cea2sdbf61cc89932839d@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003121311m422cf3bbjf82ee369a9b6c33b@mail.gmail.com> <1268429293.26304.3.camel@thomas> <121832.27670.qm@web50401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <702226df1003131143l278d2c46lbdfcf548e0d172ff@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003131226n5303477h1907741037570f1e@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003140705o682e399ufcdea6c30c490066@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003140757x45c83214ra3d26c5993ad2169@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003141219k55701cf3nb0acb31afdcba21b@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003141351t4ef5dc11r69e8ec60b5d55651@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 15:32:08 -0600 Message-ID: <702226df1003141432t2fe8bfc6j9fb44cdc026f8623@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: cusku - say or express? From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d7eb682d13180481c97f31 --0016e6d7eb682d13180481c97f31 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/3/14 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote= : > > 2010/3/14 Jorge Llamb=EDas > >> If you have: > >> > >> x1 expresses x2 to x3 via medium x4 > >> > >> and you don't already know what "cusku" actually means, you will end > >> up saying things like: > >> > >> la djan cusku lo nu ri prami kei la meris lo nu dunda lo rozgu > >> John expresses his love to Mary by giving her a rose. > >> > >> Do you see why that is wrong? > > > > No. > > OK. To see what the problem with it is, you need to understand that lo > se cusku cu sinxa gi'a valsi gi'a se smuni, whereas things that you > express are se sinxa gi'a se valsi gi'a smuni. You say or cusku the > signifier, you express the signified. The second argument of "cusku" > is a sign, something with meaning. The second argument of "express", > on the other hand, is a meaning. You don't express signs, you use > signs in order to express their meanings. "cusku" describes the use of > the sign, not the expression of the meaning. It relates the sign user > x1 with the sign x2. "cusku" doesn't have a place for the meaning of > the sign, the way that "express" does. If you explain "cusku" as "x1 > expresses x2", you are implying that x2 is a meaning, but in fact the > x2 of "cusku" is not a meaning, it is a meaning carrier, a sign, a > text, words. Alright, I see your point. How about "state"? I don't believe it's being used, it doesn't have the "meaning" connotation of "express" nor the "verbal" connotation of say. > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.or= g > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --0016e6d7eb682d13180481c97f31 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2010/3/14 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= ;jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> 20= 10/3/14 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllam= bias@gmail.com>
>> If you have:
>>
>> =A0x1 expre= sses x2 to x3 via medium x4
>>
>> and you don't alrea= dy know what "cusku" actually means, you will end
>> up = saying things like:
>>
>> =A0la djan cusku lo nu ri prami kei la meris lo nu dun= da lo rozgu
>> =A0John expresses his love to Mary by giving her a = rose.
>>
>> Do you see why that is wrong?
>
>= No.

OK. To see what the problem with it is, you need to understand th= at lo
se cusku cu sinxa gi'a valsi gi'a se smuni, whereas things= that you
express are se sinxa gi'a se valsi gi'a smuni. You say= or cusku the
signifier, you express the signified. The second argument of "cusku&qu= ot;
is a sign, something with meaning. The second argument of "expr= ess",
on the other hand, is a meaning. You don't express signs,= you use
signs in order to express their meanings. "cusku" describes the u= se of
the sign, not the expression of the meaning. It relates the sign u= ser
x1 with the sign x2. "cusku" doesn't have a place for = the meaning of
the sign, the way that "express" does. If you explain "cusku= " as "x1
expresses x2", you are implying that x2 is a mea= ning, but in fact the
x2 of "cusku" is not a meaning, it is a = meaning carrier, a sign, a
text, words.
=A0
Alright, I see your point. How about "state"? I don't be= lieve it's being used, it doesn't have the "meaning" conn= otation of "express" nor the "verbal" connotation of sa= y.
=A0
mu'o mi'e xorxes


To unsubscribe from t= his list, send mail to lo= jban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to = http://www.lojban= .org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.




--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a= 9;o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

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