From 3u4euSwoJBj0iikkZlahZrflZhk.bnlkniaZmfnnfkdfqntor.bnl@groups.bounces.google.com Sat Mar 27 15:33:58 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3u4euSwoJBj0iikkZlahZrflZhk.bnlkniaZmfnnfkdfqntor.bnl@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NveZl-0005th-5t for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:33:57 -0700 Received: by pwi3 with SMTP id 3sf2931282pwi.16 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:33:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:received:received :received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references:date:received :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; 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Sat, 27 Mar 2010 07:53:24 -0700 Received: from mail-qy0-f204.google.com ([209.85.221.204]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NvXO2-0004WP-Kw for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 07:53:23 -0700 Received: by qyk42 with SMTP id 42so1313252qyk.7 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 07:53:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.86.12 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 07:53:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201003270313.51568.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <201001222242.21483.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201002072329.52057.phma@phma.optus.nu> <925d17561002080455o3fb7e6b5gfce70ec56bee5096@mail.gmail.com> <201003270313.51568.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:53:10 -0300 Received: by 10.229.212.4 with SMTP id gq4mr1704843qcb.62.1269701590746; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 07:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17561003270753t5d15200m73f5b7ec34d1cd4e@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: camxes's reaction to some fu'ivla From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: lojban-list@lojban.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of nobody@digitalkingdom.org) smtp.mail=nobody@digitalkingdom.org; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/1dd117ccae813e2f X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/77d95a6f2bd34954 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 4:13 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > In that case, I think that the initial "i" or "u" should be treated like = a > consonant, as far as how many can begin a syllable goes. So CCi and CCu > should be permitted, but not CCCi or CCCu, since a syllable can't begin w= ith > four consonants. I would, though, allow 'i or 'u onset. I don't consider the "three consonant limit" a rule in itself, but just a consequence of the way the consonants sort themselves out in general onsets: (s|c|z|j| ) (p|t|k|b|d|g|f|x|m|n| ) (l|r| ) There just happen to be three groups of consonants, and since we can only have at most one from each group, always keeping the order, the maximum cluster ends up being of three consonants. The affricates belong to a different paradigm, and i/u also belong to a different paradigm. If we want to incorporate i/u to the general scheme, one possibility would be to add (i|u| ) as a fourth group: (s|c|z|j| ) (p|t|k|b|d|g|f|x|m|n| ) (l|r| ) (i|u| ) in which case CCCi CCCu would be possible. Another possibility would be to add i/u to the l/r group: (s|c|z|j| ) (p|t|k|b|d|g|f|x|m|n| ) (l|r|i|u| ) in which case only up to CCi or CCu are possible, but we exclude ri- li- ru- lu- as possible onsets. Currently, my preference is to just have the "palatalized" consonants: (s|c|z|j|p|t|k|b|d|g|f|x|m|n|l|r| ) i and the "labialized" consonants: (s|c|z|j|p|t|k|b|d|g|f|x|m|n|l|r| ) u along with the "affricates": (t|d)(s|c|z|j) as special onsets, almost as if they were single consonants that can't combine with anything else in an onset. >> I would limit the consonantal syllables to the 64 syllables formed by >> a consonant plus l,m,n,r. No codas and no heavier onsets. That's all >> that is needed for type-3 fu'ivla, and type-3 fu'ivla are the only >> ones where I would use consonantal syllables. And exclusively for the >> hyphen syllable, so I would never actually use vocalic "m" in fu'ivla. > > I think that whether a syllable is valid in a fu'ivla is independent of > whether it's a type-3 or type-4 fu'ivla. Changing the hyphen-letter to > another syllabic consonant should not affect its validity, unless an inva= lid > consonant cluster results. Thus "visrda" is valid, so > is "visnda"; "lerldjamo" is valid, so is "lermdjamo". That's what camxes does now, but my personal preference is to restrict consonantal syllables to the type-3 hyphen. (Eventually, this -R- hyphen can be replaced by -yR- with no ambiguity arising and voil=E0! no more consonantal syllables in fu'ivla. Another advantage of -yR- is that the -l- variety of the hyphen is no longer ever needed.) mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.