From 3pVqvSwcMBvogxgtuqpgxgtv0rg.eqonqldcpiqqingitqwru.eqo@groups.bounces.google.com Sun Mar 28 06:33:52 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3pVqvSwcMBvogxgtuqpgxgtv0rg.eqonqldcpiqqingitqwru.eqo@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nvscd-0006oK-HS for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:33:52 -0700 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32sf7230141ywh.28 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:33:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:from:subject:date :message-id:to:mime-version:x-mailer:x-antiabuse:x-antiabuse :x-antiabuse:x-antiabuse:x-antiabuse:x-source:x-source-args :x-source-dir:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Y9b7nLHPRrbhbwm8OuIVydoQJ/vxkQkhL4gQJnESuwE=; b=lD5LocT6mrh13LQqWHX7RwY6kyOInOHOBw3BSPXaL2PVx65or+AL8Ts0qRmpBWilA6 4+K2qEcerw/9vG/aVTImnRl12NaUNKwwg30lNkjsmtPRaTGE8ODigtX3fTb7VbcbeBAV GR/IP9XSUHcvwPfpzmBa3SPSQmwsMSOJyAazQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:from:subject:date:message-id:to :mime-version:x-mailer:x-antiabuse:x-source:x-source-args :x-source-dir:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=my1RDvoc3DcxeNHq2F8We2nszs98UuzrgW7xYjHClTxe7qw6g82oYHox4fR5J4pjHv Pt18i/Ti7vG/Qf+BxA86a4bEDCrDa3ynSJx7yk7K0LYMgZGS45gbHWGXPk27OVaIVw06 BWzN1xyhIbJy5cHYFjklMLsbs9p6fu6KSRuuU= Received: by 10.91.56.20 with SMTP id i20mr256663agk.52.1269783205392; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:33:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.86.126.32 with SMTP id y32ls656788fgc.0.p; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.87.47.35 with SMTP id z35mr47002fgj.20.1269783204050; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.60.129 with SMTP id p1mr384079ebh.25.1269778747248; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 05:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.60.129 with SMTP id p1mr384078ebh.25.1269778747220; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 05:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lh13.dnsireland.com (lh13.dnsireland.com [78.137.164.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 17si175996ewy.7.2010.03.28.05.19.07; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 05:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of everson@evertype.com designates 78.137.164.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=78.137.164.53; Received: from murrisk2.westnet.ie ([88.81.100.235] helo=[192.168.1.104]) by lh13.dnsireland.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NvrSC-0005nV-Ve for lojban@googlegroups.com; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:18:57 +0100 From: Michael Everson Subject: [lojban] la .alis. Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:19:05 +0100 Message-Id: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> To: lojban@googlegroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lh13.dnsireland.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - googlegroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - evertype.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of everson@evertype.com designates 78.137.164.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=everson@evertype.com X-Original-Sender: everson@evertype.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/45085562ae83ff14 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robin said: > He "offered" to publish it for us. I suggested that I might publish it, yes. > He then insisted on changing the layout and punctuation to match English,= and refused to publish it any other way. Layout? The layout is in paragraphs, which match one-to-one with Carroll's = paragraphs. In terms of fonts, yes, I would use Liberty and De Vinne and Mo= na Lisa Recut and the Engraver's fonts.=20 English? No, the suggestion was not to "match English", but to take advanta= ge of some conventions which have been common to all Latin-script languages= for centuries.=20 Refused? You've already got a 69-page monofont text (looks like TeX to me) = PDF available, and electronic formats which your computers can parse. What = value would there be in me putting out a similar edition -- especially in t= he context of a range of translations of Alice? Currently published are Cornish, English, Esperanto, German, and Irish.=20 In the works are French, Italian, Manx, Scots, Shaw Alphabet, Swedish, Ulst= er Scots, and Welsh. Possibilities are at least Afrikaans, Danish, Dutch, Lojban, and Scottish G= aelic. > That is, he wanted it to look like this: >=20 > Mi klama la Bast,n. I la Bab cusku "lu mi klama li'u" Not quite. But I'd be very interested to talk with people about the various= options one might have for punctuation markup. > Caps at start of sentences, quote marks, a few other things I can't remem= ber. Caps for proper names (la Alis), and anomalous stress marked by acute accen= ts rather than by capitalization (which is thereby freed for other use). Ne= ar as I can tell the only word in the text affected by this is "la meri,An"= ("la Meri,=C1n" or "la Meri,=E1n"; the original is "Mary Ann"). > We (people on IRC at the time), umm, kinda told him where to stick that i= dea. In pretty clear terms. My memory of the IRC was not so black and white. You, and some others, expr= essed a lack of interest in an edition with "Victorian" typography, and cri= ticized the notion of doing so. But everyone did not share that view. Pages= like http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Lojban+typography and http://www.lojban.or= g/tiki/Punctuation suggest that there is no blanket ban on punctuation, for= instance. > I don't think he likes us anymore. I like you fine. I just disagree with your stance on punctuation and typogr= aphic conventions.=20 I also like Lewis Carroll, and good typography. I find long paragraphs with= no clear visual indication of sentence boundaries to be bewildering. I am = sure that computers and savants find it quite simple to parse. I as a multi= lingual trained linguist expert in writing systems, I still find it much ea= sier to navigate the language when standard Latin-script conventions are us= ed.=20 My English and Cornish editions are used in Cornwall by learners who find i= t helpful to compare the two texts. Thing which helps learners to navigate = a paragraph are sentence boundaries, capitalized proper names, question mar= ks, and so on. Indeed, in http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter3.ht= ml, we find the following. "Technically, the period is an optional reminder to the reader of a mandato= ry pause that is dictated by the rules of the language; because these rules= are unambiguous, a missing period can be inferred from otherwise correct t= ext. Periods are included only as an aid to the reader." In for a penny, in for a pound. Full stops are not necessary; they are redu= ndant. So too are quotation marks, and since anomalous stress can be more c= ongenially marked with the acute accent (as in Spanish) than by SHOUTING, t= here's no reason an edition of a text could not choose to do that, and ther= eby permit capital letters to be used, redundantly, to mark the beginnings = of sentences, proper names, and whatnot. You, Robin, and maybe even many Lojbanists, might believe that such redunda= ncy is irrelevant, un-useful, wrong-headed, ugly, stupid, or just plain "wr= ong". I rather doubt that all 464 members of this discussion forum will hol= d such extreme views, though. Redundancy is harmless -- indeed, we don't sp= eak with punctuation marks in English or Irish or any other languages. Lojb= an's "audio-visual isomorphism" is extremely cool. But centuries of Latin t= ypographic practice have evolved because those practices are *useful* to re= aders (as useful as the full stop) and I can see no reason not to pursue my= project just because you and a few others on IRC, "umm, kinda told me wher= e to stick" the idea.=20 I would appreciate it if anyone who *is* interested in this would say so, a= s I'd like to discuss the options regarding redundant markup of quoted mate= rial. Best regards, Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.