From 3BFuvSw8JBloEA4926D.6N6JKGF8E2AD.4GEDGB32F8GG8D68JGMHK.4GE@groups.bounces.google.com Sun Mar 28 06:35:29 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3BFuvSw8JBloEA4926D.6N6JKGF8E2AD.4GEDGB32F8GG8D68JGMHK.4GE@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NvseB-0006wV-72 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:35:28 -0700 Received: by gwb1 with SMTP id 1sf7788426gwb.16 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:35:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:received:from :subject:date:message-id:to:mime-version:x-mailer :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url :x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Y9b7nLHPRrbhbwm8OuIVydoQJ/vxkQkhL4gQJnESuwE=; b=Z4G1GaRrmDI1FyEOHFUllm4ElIsbRAptM5ztyepTyzpYaUZBWHMtfIlc+aubgxmrjP OzI6eEx66jEMdY5t9CmMUq/3i9Ojy45BaOrUlTeUALnTDLxkKiH55XlsnmBfXEnUEVyu 5Ky0BGAtOEGIFHBWgvnR2Ndkg/hcIAe7oHISU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:from:subject:date:message-id:to :mime-version:x-mailer:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=pVaGEhj61nPR+wKKu8LkB5iv9q/sAjHJ0MAOgqC+PvagI+y069oWCk4dsppKcvSCuq VRb045IhmvYMO8JZ4IhzGhIelbp78Qp4pWXR/dSTueWheQ5TlV4ag+slouc34Qqog/La VOamraqY81x2zax5E5QMQtYvuUc5z0Wth481A= Received: by 10.91.91.11 with SMTP id t11mr262263agl.28.1269783300861; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:35:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.87.74.30 with SMTP id b30ls43403fgl.3.p; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.87.68.23 with SMTP id v23mr291602fgk.25.1269783203551; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.137.151 with SMTP id w23mr233691bkt.28.1269778868112; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 05:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.137.151 with SMTP id w23mr233690bkt.28.1269778868080; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 05:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f49.google.com (mail-ww0-f49.google.com [74.125.82.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a12si3712890bkb.0.2010.03.28.05.21.06; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 05:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.49; Received: by wwb18 with SMTP id 18so3761672wwb.22 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 05:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.159.6 with SMTP id r6mr2052234wek.67.1269778866470; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 05:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (murrisk2.westnet.ie [88.81.100.235]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t2sm10834475gve.19.2010.03.28.05.21.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 28 Mar 2010 05:21:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Everson Subject: [lojban] la .alis. Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:21:04 +0100 Message-Id: <44766EDC-06BC-4C51-BFEB-15C7E8893161@gmail.com> To: lojban@googlegroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=michael.everson@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: michael.everson@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/2260829da7c6dffb Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robin said: > He "offered" to publish it for us. I suggested that I might publish it, yes. > He then insisted on changing the layout and punctuation to match English,= and refused to publish it any other way. Layout? The layout is in paragraphs, which match one-to-one with Carroll's = paragraphs. In terms of fonts, yes, I would use Liberty and De Vinne and Mo= na Lisa Recut and the Engraver's fonts.=20 English? No, the suggestion was not to "match English", but to take advanta= ge of some conventions which have been common to all Latin-script languages= for centuries.=20 Refused? You've already got a 69-page monofont text (looks like TeX to me) = PDF available, and electronic formats which your computers can parse. What = value would there be in me putting out a similar edition -- especially in t= he context of a range of translations of Alice? Currently published are Cornish, English, Esperanto, German, and Irish.=20 In the works are French, Italian, Manx, Scots, Shaw Alphabet, Swedish, Ulst= er Scots, and Welsh. Possibilities are at least Afrikaans, Danish, Dutch, Lojban, and Scottish G= aelic. > That is, he wanted it to look like this: >=20 > Mi klama la Bast,n. I la Bab cusku "lu mi klama li'u" Not quite. But I'd be very interested to talk with people about the various= options one might have for punctuation markup. > Caps at start of sentences, quote marks, a few other things I can't remem= ber. Caps for proper names (la Alis), and anomalous stress marked by acute accen= ts rather than by capitalization (which is thereby freed for other use). Ne= ar as I can tell the only word in the text affected by this is "la meri,An"= ("la Meri,=C1n" or "la Meri,=E1n"; the original is "Mary Ann"). > We (people on IRC at the time), umm, kinda told him where to stick that i= dea. In pretty clear terms. My memory of the IRC was not so black and white. You, and some others, expr= essed a lack of interest in an edition with "Victorian" typography, and cri= ticized the notion of doing so. But everyone did not share that view. Pages= like http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Lojban+typography and http://www.lojban.or= g/tiki/Punctuation suggest that there is no blanket ban on punctuation, for= instance. > I don't think he likes us anymore. I like you fine. I just disagree with your stance on punctuation and typogr= aphic conventions.=20 I also like Lewis Carroll, and good typography. I find long paragraphs with= no clear visual indication of sentence boundaries to be bewildering. I am = sure that computers and savants find it quite simple to parse. I as a multi= lingual trained linguist expert in writing systems, I still find it much ea= sier to navigate the language when standard Latin-script conventions are us= ed.=20 My English and Cornish editions are used in Cornwall by learners who find i= t helpful to compare the two texts. Thing which helps learners to navigate = a paragraph are sentence boundaries, capitalized proper names, question mar= ks, and so on. Indeed, in http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter3.ht= ml, we find the following. "Technically, the period is an optional reminder to the reader of a mandato= ry pause that is dictated by the rules of the language; because these rules= are unambiguous, a missing period can be inferred from otherwise correct t= ext. Periods are included only as an aid to the reader." In for a penny, in for a pound. Full stops are not necessary; they are redu= ndant. So too are quotation marks, and since anomalous stress can be more c= ongenially marked with the acute accent (as in Spanish) than by SHOUTING, t= here's no reason an edition of a text could not choose to do that, and ther= eby permit capital letters to be used, redundantly, to mark the beginnings = of sentences, proper names, and whatnot. You, Robin, and maybe even many Lojbanists, might believe that such redunda= ncy is irrelevant, un-useful, wrong-headed, ugly, stupid, or just plain "wr= ong". I rather doubt that all 464 members of this discussion forum will hol= d such extreme views, though. Redundancy is harmless -- indeed, we don't sp= eak with punctuation marks in English or Irish or any other languages. Lojb= an's "audio-visual isomorphism" is extremely cool. But centuries of Latin t= ypographic practice have evolved because those practices are *useful* to re= aders (as useful as the full stop) and I can see no reason not to pursue my= project just because you and a few others on IRC, "umm, kinda told me wher= e to stick" the idea.=20 I would appreciate it if anyone who *is* interested in this would say so, a= s I'd like to discuss the options regarding redundant markup of quoted mate= rial. Best regards, Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.