From 3ZGCvSw8JBr8rnhmfjq.j0jwxtslrfnq.htrqtogfslttlqjlwtzux.htr@groups.bounces.google.com Sun Mar 28 06:58:28 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f141.google.com ([209.85.210.141]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3ZGCvSw8JBr8rnhmfjq.j0jwxtslrfnq.htrqtogfslttlqjlwtzux.htr@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nvt0M-0008EF-FL for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:58:24 -0700 Received: by yxe5 with SMTP id 5sf2064901yxe.2 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:58:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:date :in-reply-to:x-ip:references:user-agent:x-http-useragent:received :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5DFzsZ6aiqC2TTQ6sFOOnjDX/mR9O+QXUUPJob1+DPw=; b=FSGaGOA5n+tZa9Jr2J2ngOVMaMINR18BUEYI12Csxyo/Vmmn73dxAHgLWN+3Xo3vBK C5J831w/jy0r8cxZtVPvSuhqzQynS1J+IrF4rEwCD7dbY2GXyUDiGhzMqGSzRAqz5dvQ G9vPhdIZCuPBcRVsa3YRAHGJwPUVcosYVepDg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip :references:user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url :x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=CULDcZQXJyPseVl2WBxsrgTnsY6DclSl++6c9jK3cUZc+h+pgaUohvbnGDe0gjzUtn ZLZSqIJjnZrRItvVEv45iNpZfcsd818FwH05dVVqTARxeFfFJ9VRDFz3Ky8rzjoHAbe5 ZnH12xpZ9Yuu7OFvpzGcJqh06ljkpJSi2hn1o= Received: by 10.101.152.10 with SMTP id e10mr61578ano.62.1269784676852; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:57:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.248.13 with SMTP id v13ls400008agh.7.p; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.1.25 with SMTP id 25mr4147181aga.2.1269784675835; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.1.25 with SMTP id 25mr4147180aga.2.1269784675811; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f145.google.com (mail-yx0-f145.google.com [209.85.210.145]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si141188yxe.12.2010.03.28.06.57.55; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.145 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.145; Received: by mail-yx0-f145.google.com with SMTP id 9so16433696yxe.16 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:57:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by u22g2000yqf.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:57:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100202020339.GA1952@digitalkingdom.org> X-IP: 88.81.100.235 References: <425e4ac21002011729t4b51c16epd167881bb4293ce2@mail.gmail.com> <20100202020339.GA1952@digitalkingdom.org> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_6_3; en-ca) AppleWebKit/531.22.7 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Safari/531.22.7,gzip(gfe) Received: by 10.150.242.4 with SMTP id p4mr204798ybh.48.1269784675777; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: la .alis. From: Evertype To: lojban X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.145 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=michael.everson@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: michael.everson@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/f6eb5d08fee85068 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/46ffab5b7485e8eb Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robin said: He "offered" to publish it for us. I suggested that I might publish it, yes. He then insisted on changing the layout and punctuation to match English, and refused to publish it any other way. Layout? The layout is in paragraphs, which match one-to-one with Carroll's paragraphs. In terms of fonts, yes, I would use Liberty and De Vinne and Mona Lisa Recut and the Engraver's fonts. English? No, the suggestion was not to "match English", but to take advantage of some conventions which have been common to all Latin- script languages for centuries. Refused? You've already got a 69-page monofont text (looks like TeX to me) PDF available, and electronic formats which your computers can parse. What value would there be in me putting out a similar edition -- especially in the context of a range of translations of Alice? Currently published are Cornish, English, Esperanto, German, and Irish. In the works are French, Italian, Manx, Scots, Shaw Alphabet, Swedish, Ulster Scots, and Welsh. Possibilities are at least Afrikaans, Danish, Dutch, Lojban, and Scottish Gaelic. That is, he wanted it to look like this: Mi klama la Bast,n. I la Bab cusku "lu mi klama li'u" Not quite. But I'd be very interested to talk with people about the various options one might have for punctuation markup. Caps at start of sentences, quote marks, a few other things I can't remember. Caps for proper names (la Alis), and anomalous stress marked by acute accents rather than by capitalization (which is thereby freed for other use). Near as I can tell the only word in the text affected by this is "la meri,An" ("la Meri,=C1n" or "la Meri,=E1n"; the original is "Mary Ann"). We (people on IRC at the time), umm, kinda told him where to stick that idea. In pretty clear terms. My memory of the IRC was not so black and white. You, and some others, expressed a lack of interest in an edition with "Victorian" typography, and criticized the notion of doing so. But everyone did not share that view. Pages like http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Lojban+typograph= y and http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Punctuation suggest that there is no blanket ban on punctuation, for instance. I don't think he likes us anymore. I like you fine. I just disagree with your stance on punctuation and typographic conventions. I also like Lewis Carroll, and good typography. I find long paragraphs with no clear visual indication of sentence boundaries to be bewildering. I am sure that computers and savants find it quite simple to parse. I as a multilingual trained linguist expert in writing systems, I still find it much easier to navigate the language when standard Latin-script conventions are used. My English and Cornish editions are used in Cornwall by learners who find it helpful to compare the two texts. Thing which helps learners to navigate a paragraph are sentence boundaries, capitalized proper names, question marks, and so on. Indeed, in http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter3.ht= ml, we find the following. "Technically, the period is an optional reminder to the reader of a mandatory pause that is dictated by the rules of the language; because these rules are unambiguous, a missing period can be inferred from otherwise correct text. Periods are included only as an aid to the reader." In for a penny, in for a pound. Full stops are not necessary; they are redundant. So too are quotation marks, and since anomalous stress can be more congenially marked with the acute accent (as in Spanish) than by SHOUTING, there's no reason an edition of a text could not choose to do that, and thereby permit capital letters to be used, redundantly, to mark the beginnings of sentences, proper names, and whatnot. You, Robin, and maybe even many Lojbanists, might believe that such redundancy is irrelevant, un-useful, wrong-headed, ugly, stupid, or just plain "wrong". I rather doubt that all 464 members of this discussion forum will hold such extreme views, though. Redundancy is harmless -- indeed, we don't speak with punctuation marks in English or Irish or any other languages. Lojban's "audio-visual isomorphism" is extremely cool. But centuries of Latin typographic practice have evolved because those practices are *useful* to readers (as useful as the full stop) and I can see no reason not to pursue my project just because you and a few others on IRC, "umm, kinda told me where to stick" the idea. I would appreciate it if anyone who *is* interested in this would say so, as I'd like to discuss the options regarding redundant markup of quoted material. Best regards, Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.