From 3W42vSwcJBuMJdJTSZXLRFNQ.HTRQTOGFSLTTLQJLWTZUX.HTR@groups.bounces.google.com Sun Mar 28 10:10:19 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3W42vSwcJBuMJdJTSZXLRFNQ.HTRQTOGFSLTTLQJLWTZUX.HTR@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nvw01-0000SN-AG for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:10:18 -0700 Received: by gwb1 with SMTP id 1sf7952959gwb.16 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:10:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url :x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=nZaCeV0ynYiX4bIS25CvH/v1MsdhYVw/Dao7RpsSLpg=; b=2Vvbzk3XIi2tYjqYCc6/hogBRu3SxQpX/VKnbzlnwA0CgqeI6+gFwJkYdN7DFhGvz3 /Kyto7lSiAwliymmdNXdftn+MnRuqkuj4eMwQkQxY6X4mULorPsi1g/xQKIwbBaOVKQR Yv0gPkoiuPUzEiWoZg3C580htWwCWJ4+2Tyv4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=WgO52/kciQrjH+v5lztwfKFgUTqTgQCI6o1sOXc1VgSZatc8/NkcaoAUGrrpri1T1W GBw7TPtkpDHj3LMJWl05UI0y6K0DkI4d8oPdhsON4cMf3TUFAqWtvRLXBCF0TfDYHIcW A3PwdwHfv1zTPKh4vgbr4RnmbTsmBxavaUAgE= Received: by 10.91.90.9 with SMTP id s9mr275880agl.13.1269796187747; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:09:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.32.206 with SMTP id e14ls4397327bkd.2.p; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.163.19 with SMTP id y19mr228647bkx.22.1269796184650; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.163.19 with SMTP id y19mr228646bkx.22.1269796184591; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f66.google.com (mail-ww0-f66.google.com [74.125.82.66]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a12si3989780bkb.0.2010.03.28.10.09.43; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.66 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.66; Received: by wwb29 with SMTP id 29so172705wwb.9 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:09:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.2.209 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:09:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <44766EDC-06BC-4C51-BFEB-15C7E8893161@gmail.com> References: <44766EDC-06BC-4C51-BFEB-15C7E8893161@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 11:09:43 -0600 Received: by 10.216.88.136 with SMTP id a8mr2419548wef.77.1269796183194; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <702226df1003281009v16765b67t15164adbc68e98d@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Jonathan Jones To: Michael Everson , lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.66 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/71de4011ddfef211 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d64c236fbdf80482df7641 --0016e6d64c236fbdf80482df7641 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 6:21 AM, Michael Everson wrote: > > > That is, he wanted it to look like this: > > Mi klama la Bast,n. I la Bab cusku "lu mi klama li'u" > Not quite. But I'd be very interested to talk with people about the > various options one might have for punctuation markup. > > Lojban doesn't have "punctuation". For example, Lojban's equivalent to "?= " is {xu}, as in {xu do jimpe mi}, which means "Do you understand me?" While Lojban does have 3 special characters- {.}, {,}, and {'}, they are used as letters, not as punctuation. The correct form of the Lojban {mi klama la.bast,n. .i la.bab cusku lu mi klama li'u} is {mi klama la.bAst,n. .i la.bab cusku lu mi klama li'u} > > Caps at start of sentences, quote marks, a few other things I can't > remember. > Caps for proper names (la Alis), and anomalous stress marked by acute > accents rather than by capitalization (which is thereby freed for other > use). Near as I can tell the only word in the text affected by this is "l= a > meri,An" ("la Meri,=C1n" or "la Meri,=E1n"; the original is "Mary Ann"). > > Capitalization in Lojban is used to mark non-standard stress. In Lojban, all words are stressed on the second-to-last syllable, except in names, whe= n marked by capitalizing either the entire syllable or just the vowel of the syllable that gets primary stress. la.meri,an. is thus pronounced la.merI,an., stressed on "ri", whereas la.meri,An is stressed on "an". > > We (people on IRC at the time), umm, kinda told him where to stick that > idea. In pretty clear terms. > > My memory of the IRC was not so black and white. You, and some others, > expressed a lack of interest in an edition with "Victorian" typography, a= nd > criticized the notion of doing so. But everyone did not share that view. > Pages like http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Lojban+typography and > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Punctuation suggest that there is no blanket > ban on punctuation, for instance. > > The Punctuation page describes where and how it is acceptable to use punctuation. However, such punctuation in not part of Lojban. {xu? do jimpe mi} is {xu do jimpe mi} with a non-Lojbanic character inserted to indicate that {xu} is a question word. {mi cusku lu" mi cliva "li'u} is {mi cusku lu mi cliva li'u} with non-lojbanic characters inserted to indicate the begin and ending quote words. They are NOT part of Lojban writing, have never bee= n used in any Lojban writing I've seen, and only serve one purpose, to my knowledge- which is, to help beginning learners remember what certain words do. Since I I highly doubt that someone so new to the Lojban language that they can't even remember what {xu} or {li'u} means without a foreign character put in the text would be able to read {la.alis.}, such foreign punctuation has no place in the text. > I don't think he likes us anymore. > > I like you fine. I just disagree with your stance on punctuation and > typographic conventions. > Our stance is, use *Lojban* punctuation and typography. It's that simple. > > I also like Lewis Carroll, and good typography. I find long paragraphs wi= th > no clear visual indication of sentence boundaries to be bewildering. I am > sure that computers and savants find it quite simple to parse. I as a > multilingual trained linguist expert in writing systems, I still find it > much easier to navigate the language when standard Latin-script conventio= ns > are used. > > As far as I'm concerned, you're perfectly allowed to insert line breaks a= nd paragraphs in the appropriate locations. For instance, "ni'o ni'o " would be fine as: " ni'o ni'o " {ni'o} being equivalent to the paragraph in English. ({ni'oni'o} being section, {ni'oni'oni'o} being chapter, etc.) > My English and Cornish editions are used in Cornwall by learners who find > it helpful to compare the two texts. Thing which helps learners to naviga= te > a paragraph are sentence boundaries, capitalized proper names, question > marks, and so on. > Indeed, in > http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter3.html, we > find the following. > > "Technically, the period is an optional reminder to the reader of a > mandatory pause that is dictated by the rules of the language; because th= ese > rules are unambiguous, a missing period can be inferred from otherwise > correct text. Periods are included only as an aid to the reader." > > A period is not necessary if a space is used, a space is not necessary if= a period is used. As such, {mi tavla do la.alis.}, could also be written {mi tavla do la .alis.}, {mi tavla do la alis}, or the horribly atrocious looking and much frowned upon {mitAvladola.alis.}, all of which are the exact same utterance. My personal preference is, when a glottal stop would be pronounced when speaking something, to choose the period over the space, as in {mi tavla do la.alis.}. Other people prefer to not ever use the perio= d in writing, as in {mi tavla do la alis}. The CLL, the official reference grammar, at no point omits either, and would write it as {mi tavla do la .alis.}. Any of these conventions regarding {denpabu} is fine by me, as the= y are all {lo lojbo}. In for a penny, in for a pound. Full stops are not necessary; they are > redundant. So too are quotation marks, and since anomalous stress can be > more congenially marked with the acute accent (as in Spanish) than by > SHOUTING, there's no reason an edition of a text could not choose to do > that, and thereby permit capital letters to be used, redundantly, to mark > the beginnings of sentences, proper names, and whatnot. > > Certainly, you can write {la.meri,An.} as {la.meri,=E1n.}. Accents are an acceptable form of non-standard stress demarcation. However, {la.Meri,=E1n.= } is just plain wrong. Lojban does not capitalise proper nouns. Lojban doesn'= t even *have* nouns. The name of Paris in Lojban is {la.parIs.}, or, if you like, {la.par=EDs.}, it is *not* {la.Par=EDs.} Furthermore. The "." is a letter in Lojban. The "?" is not. It might not be strictly necessary to use "." in {lo nu lojbo ciska}, but only because a person proficient in Lojban knows that one goes in that place. {mi klama do la alis la lojban} is still *pronounced* as {mi klama do la .alis. la .lojban.}, regardless. > You, Robin, and maybe even many Lojbanists, might believe that such > redundancy is irrelevant, un-useful, wrong-headed, ugly, stupid, or just > plain "wrong". I rather doubt that all 464 members of this discussion for= um > will hold such extreme views, though. Redundancy is harmless -- indeed, w= e > don't speak with punctuation marks in English or Irish or any other > languages. Lojban's "audio-visual isomorphism" is extremely cool. But > centuries of Latin typographic practice have evolved because those practi= ces > are *useful* to readers (as useful as the full stop) and I can see no rea= son > not to pursue my project just because you and a few others on IRC, "umm, > kinda told me where to stick" the idea. > In the issue of punctuation, Lojban is more like Japanese then English. For example, to say "You are healthy." in Japanese, is "Ogenki desu". In lojban= , {ko kanro}. To ask "Are you healthy?" in Japanese, is "Ogenki desu ka". In Lojban, {xu ko kanro}. I personally feel that foreign punctuation, such as {?} and {"} would actually be detrimental. In other words, far from being the help you seem to think they would be, I see them as a *hindrance*. I would not be at all surprised if the majority, if not the entirety, of my fellow Lojbanists agreed with me on this. > > I would appreciate it if anyone who *is* interested in this would say so, > as I'd like to discuss the options regarding redundant markup of quoted > material. > > Best regards, > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e6d64c236fbdf80482df7641 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 6:21 AM, Michael= Everson <michael.everson@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
=A0> That is, he wanted it to look like this:
=A0> Mi klama la Bas= t,n. I la Bab cusku "lu mi klama li'u"
=A0Not quite. But I'd be very interested to talk with people about the = various options one might have for punctuation markup.

Lojban doesn't have "punctuation". For = example, Lojban's equivalent to "?" is {xu}, as in {xu do jim= pe mi}, which means "Do you understand me?" While Lojban does hav= e 3 special characters- {.}, {,}, and {'}, they are used as letters, no= t as punctuation. The correct form of the Lojban {mi klama la.bast,n. .i la= .bab cusku lu mi klama li'u} is=A0{mi klama la.bAst,n. .i la.bab cusku = lu mi klama li'u}
=A0
> Caps at start of sentences, quote marks, a few other things I can'= t remember.=A0

Caps for proper names (la Alis), and anomalous stress marked by acute accen= ts rather than by capitalization (which is thereby freed for other use). Ne= ar as I can tell the only word in the text affected by this is "la mer= i,An" ("la Meri,=C1n" or "la Meri,=E1n"; the origi= nal is "Mary Ann").

Capitalization in Lojban is used to mark non-standard= stress. In Lojban, all words are stressed on the second-to-last syllable, = except in names, when marked by capitalizing either the entire syllable or = just the vowel of the syllable that gets primary stress. la.meri,an. is thu= s pronounced la.merI,an., stressed on "ri", whereas la.meri,An is= stressed on "an".
=A0
> We (people on IRC at the time), umm, kinda told him where to stick tha= t idea. In pretty clear terms.

My memory of the IRC was not so black and white. You, and some others, expr= essed a lack of interest in an edition with "Victorian" typograph= y, and criticized the notion of doing so. But everyone did not share that v= iew. Pages like http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Lojban+typography and http://www.l= ojban.org/tiki/Punctuation suggest that there is no blanket ban on punc= tuation, for instance.

The Punctuation page describes where and how it is ac= ceptable to use punctuation. However, such punctuation in not part of Lojba= n. {xu? do jimpe mi} is {xu do jimpe mi} with a non-Lojbanic character inse= rted to indicate that {xu} is a question word. {mi cusku lu" mi cliva = "li'u} is {mi cusku lu mi cliva li'u} with non-lojbanic charac= ters inserted to indicate the begin and ending quote words. They are NOT pa= rt of Lojban writing, have never been used in any Lojban writing I've s= een, and only serve one purpose, to my knowledge- which is, to help beginni= ng learners remember what certain words do.

Since I I highly doubt that someone so new to the Lojba= n language that they can't even remember what {xu} or {li'u} means = without a foreign character put in the text would be able to read {la.alis.= },=A0=A0such foreign punctuation has no place in the text.

> I don't think he likes us anymore.

I like you fine. I just disagree with your stance on punctuation and typogr= aphic conventions.

Our stance is, use <= i>Lojban=A0punctuation and typography. It's that simple.=A0

I also like Lewis Carroll, and good typography. I find long paragraphs with= no clear visual indication of sentence boundaries to be bewildering. I am = sure that computers and savants find it quite simple to parse. I as a multi= lingual trained linguist expert in writing systems, I still find it much ea= sier to navigate the language when standard Latin-script conventions are us= ed.

As far as I'm concerned, you're perfectly all= owed to insert line breaks and paragraphs in the appropriate locations. For= instance, "ni'o <text> ni'o <text>" would be= fine as:
"
ni'o <text>

ni'= ;o <text>
"

{ni'o} being = equivalent to the paragraph in English. ({ni'oni'o} being section, = {ni'oni'oni'o} being chapter, etc.)
My English and Cornish editions are used in Cornwall by learners who find i= t helpful to compare the two texts. Thing which helps learners to navigate = a paragraph are sentence boundaries, capitalized proper names, question mar= ks, and so on.

Indeed, in http://www.lojban.org/publications/referen= ce_grammar/chapter3.html, we find the following.

"Technically, the period is an optional reminder to the reader of a ma= ndatory pause that is dictated by the rules of the language; because these = rules are unambiguous, a missing period can be inferred from otherwise corr= ect text. Periods are included only as an aid to the reader."

A period is not necessary if a space is used, a space= is not necessary if a period is used. As such, {mi tavla do la.alis.}, cou= ld also be written {mi tavla do la .alis.}, {mi tavla do la alis}, or the h= orribly atrocious looking and much frowned upon {mitAvladola.alis.}, all of= which are the exact same utterance. My personal preference is, when a glot= tal stop would be pronounced when speaking something, to choose the period = over the space, as in {mi tavla do la.alis.}. Other people prefer to not ev= er use the period in writing, as in {mi tavla do la alis}. The CLL, the off= icial reference grammar, at no point omits either, and would write it as {m= i tavla do la .alis.}. Any of these conventions regarding {denpabu} is fine= by me, as they are all {lo lojbo}.

In for a penny, in for a pound. Full stops are not necessary; they are redu= ndant. So too are quotation marks, and since anomalous stress can be more c= ongenially marked with the acute accent (as in Spanish) than by SHOUTING, t= here's no reason an edition of a text could not choose to do that, and = thereby permit capital letters to be used, redundantly, to mark the beginni= ngs of sentences, proper names, and whatnot.

Certainly, you can write {la.meri,An.} as {la.meri,= =E1n.}. Accents are an acceptable form of non-standard stress demarcation. = However, {la.Meri,=E1n.} is just plain wrong. Lojban does not capitalise pr= oper nouns. Lojban doesn't even have=A0nouns. The name of Paris = in Lojban is {la.parIs.}, or, if you like, {la.par=EDs.}, it is not = {la.Par=EDs.}

Furthermore. The "." is a letter in Lojban. T= he "?" is not. It might not be strictly necessary to use ".&= quot; in {lo nu lojbo ciska}, but only because a person proficient in Lojba= n knows that one goes in that place. {mi klama do la alis la lojban} is sti= ll pronounced=A0as {mi klama do la .alis. la .lojban.}, regardless.= =A0
=A0
You, Robin, and maybe even many Lojbanists, might believe that such redunda= ncy is irrelevant, un-useful, wrong-headed, ugly, stupid, or just plain &qu= ot;wrong". I rather doubt that all 464 members of this discussion foru= m will hold such extreme views, though. Redundancy is harmless -- indeed, w= e don't speak with punctuation marks in English or Irish or any other l= anguages. Lojban's "audio-visual isomorphism" is extremely co= ol. But centuries of Latin typographic practice have evolved because those = practices are *useful* to readers (as useful as the full stop) and I can se= e no reason not to pursue my project just because you and a few others on I= RC, "umm, kinda told me where to stick" the idea.

In the issue of punctuation, Lojban is mor= e like Japanese then English. For example, to say "You are healthy.&qu= ot; in Japanese, is "Ogenki desu". In lojban, {ko kanro}. To ask = "Are you healthy?" in Japanese, is "Ogenki desu ka". In= Lojban, {xu ko kanro}. I personally feel that foreign punctuation, such as= {?} and {"} would actually be detrimental. In other words, far from b= eing the help you seem to think they would be, I see them as a hindrance= . I would not be at all surprised if the majority, if not the entirety,= of my fellow Lojbanists agreed with me on this.

I would appreciate it if anyone who *is* interested in this would say so, a= s I'd like to discuss the options regarding redundant markup of quoted = material.

Best regards,
Michael Everson * ht= tp://www.evertype.com/

--
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--
mu'o mi'= e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

--
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