From 3rJ-vSwwJBkcvj22.vj22j0wpvjru.lxvuxskjwpxxpunp0x3y1.lxv@groups.bounces.google.com Sun Mar 28 11:28:23 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3rJ-vSwwJBkcvj22.vj22j0wpvjru.lxvuxskjwpxxpunp0x3y1.lxv@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NvxDe-0006z0-1X for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 11:28:23 -0700 Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20sf14724113vws.16 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 11:28:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:date:received :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=rtlQt0822UYPsBdrM79IYRji2WrlznY9ky9BDix1izA=; b=ZoIGeFSyhFgKVg01eIcF1XeJ4QBHxgqynDZaGP58OnOP8+pgNjBBfDh9DOvPfh10nP qq5W8x8z3vAO/LaK2fUkAGKtDUAwnA80TKW1y8THfAhJLoE7ptUnyp1LIBTQkJD32RA1 e1nD7Q41NiWFJw3H1o2wU9sh6EMZfzuKH0co8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=1GVp8wmtXsFidfwYuXrDLRclcXbWOgRmsuJtcNr8GszVrdjy47RehlcJMHI8dmNP6V X53WV+h/yi4yylrEFSvsnSFcTAC5ojrIg34ZUX90J1C1ZucuqGtYmyr6Il+xSseD4JWo YRtQZciscb7ZJOa6HO9rYDtEcvw4M3OKbg+FM= Received: by 10.220.122.234 with SMTP id m42mr328493vcr.29.1269800876321; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 11:27:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.68.217 with SMTP id w25ls28179vci.1.p; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 11:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.160.69 with SMTP id m5mr986822vcx.7.1269800875067; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 11:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.160.69 with SMTP id m5mr986821vcx.7.1269800875042; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 11:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f203.google.com (mail-yw0-f203.google.com [209.85.211.203]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 21si8213932vws.1.2010.03.28.11.27.53; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 11:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.203 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.211.203; Received: by ywh41 with SMTP id 41so1015009ywh.9 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 11:27:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.196.12 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 11:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 14:27:53 -0400 Received: by 10.151.94.1 with SMTP id w1mr4128263ybl.72.1269800873722; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 11:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Audio-Visual Isomorphism, Phonemic Orthography From: Matt Arnold To: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= Cc: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.203 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=matt.mattarn@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/f2f45d9547643d0f X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/10cf5910f8884b67 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable xorxes, Alphabets are, generally speaking, all phonemic orthographies. Just far less consistently phonemic. Audio-visual isomorphism means each letter has only one sound*, and each sound has only one letter. Other languages have letters that are supposed to make unrelated sounds, or sounds created by unrelated letters, based on different circumstances. Lojban does not do this. That is how it is described in our publications. Maybe the term is silly, but it tends to be explained in every reference material. -Eppcott * "One sound" defined realistically. It does not mean that everyone speaks "i" the same, and it never claims that it does. Lojban accommodates close sound variations that are created by inexpert pronunciation or the shape of different people's mouths. In practice, there are a functionally nigh-infinite number of fine-grained variants on phonemes. Far more than can be distinguished except to expert ears. To exclude every one of these thousands of indistinguishable variants is impractical and can never be achieved. I consider every "i" variant to be legal, so long as it is consistently and easily distinguishable from "e", "a", "o" or "u". 2010/3/28 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 9:19 AM, Michael Everson w= rote: >> Robin said: >> >>> That is, he wanted it to look like this: >>> >>> Mi klama la Bast,n. I la Bab cusku "lu mi klama li'u" >> >> Not quite. But I'd be very interested to talk with people about the vari= ous options one might have for punctuation markup. > > Punctuation markup has been used for Lojban texts in the past, > although not quite in that way. > >>> Caps at start of sentences, quote marks, a few other things I can't rem= ember. >> >> Caps for proper names (la Alis), and anomalous stress marked by acute ac= cents rather than by capitalization (which is thereby freed for other use).= Near as I can tell the only word in the text affected by this is "la meri,= An" ("la Meri,=C1n" or "la Meri,=E1n"; the original is "Mary Ann"). > > I'm all in favor of not using caps to mark stress. The acute accent is > fine for me, but unnecessary. I don't think caps for proper names is > such a good idea though. > >> I find long paragraphs with no clear visual indication of sentence bound= aries to be bewildering. I am sure that computers and savants find it quite= simple to parse. I as a multilingual trained linguist expert in writing sy= stems, I still find it much easier to navigate the language when standard L= atin-script conventions are used. > > The sentence separator ".i" is visually quite distinct though. It may > be that I'm just too used to Lojban by now, but I find caps at the > start of Lojban sentences more distracting than helpful. Would you > have the ".i" capitalized, or the first letter of the following word? > >> In for a penny, in for a pound. Full stops are not necessary; they are r= edundant. So too are quotation marks, and since anomalous stress can be mor= e congenially marked with the acute accent (as in Spanish) than by SHOUTING= , there's no reason an edition of a text could not choose to do that, and t= hereby permit capital letters to be used, redundantly, to mark the beginnin= gs of sentences, proper names, and whatnot. > > Personally, I like to reserve capital letters for letter names, so "A" > instead of "abu", "B" instead of "by", and so on, just like "1" can > stand for "pa", "2" for "re" and so on. It would be interesting to see > how the Alice text looks with that convention, given the use of letter > names as pronouns, > > >> Lojban's "audio-visual isomorphism" is extremely cool. > > I wish someone would explain what "audio-visual isomorphism" is > supposed to mean. Is it something more than "phonemic orthography"? > There is and never has been any strict isomorphism between the spoken > and the written forms of a Lojban text, as far as I can see. Why are > Lojbanists so fond of crazy terminology? > >> But centuries of Latin typographic practice have evolved because those p= ractices are *useful* to readers (as useful as the full stop) and I can see= no reason not to pursue my project just because you and a few others on IR= C, "umm, kinda told me where to stick" the idea. > > Please do pursue it. (The full stop is not used in Lojban as in the > Latin typographic practice though.) > >> I would appreciate it if anyone who *is* interested in this would say so= , as I'd like to discuss the options regarding redundant markup of quoted m= aterial. > > I'm interested. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.