From 3lrWvSwgSBkc0uyx5nuumrpr2jutrwpmxv.x0puxskjwpxxpunp0x3y1.lxv@groups.bounces.google.com Sun Mar 28 13:01:53 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3lrWvSwgSBkc0uyx5nuumrpr2jutrwpmxv.x0puxskjwpxxpunp0x3y1.lxv@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nvyg7-0005sO-Qq for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:01:53 -0700 Received: by pwi3 with SMTP id 3sf3091298pwi.16 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:01:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:received:date:from :to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version :in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5oP93a7rCiYGs6S89KY11LvXqUQZ69E14E8zcqgLEcc=; b=ROdScnnb/NSHIqekARWfAiqrjZwoeqhysPJFqV7F5eYb21hK+uoGERod+CIMx4FiPf XeOAvWtHgHUs71VvCSChkyziKt9S+QdI1uZ04PyxOGRBlZT811nxH21XI6PlkRCOESxJ 9WEFuazQfURqljizFK5xTNSFxCD4s5MSK0UuQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; b=1M7/m+dgBnhww1baAqXCmsuwiuDrwVSbcY6zt1xweW+Tca52pVvYdfpJWBIIc4RoUv xiSy35hrGdXx8mY6R9ihZJfbvVaabA66eLVPfIlBc+DJI04PkhYKB0VcTYVgJxc3kqX9 jSLIxHcQI7HhwEuMxWXopCD5YKjSwZmCSmf3M= Received: by 10.141.131.19 with SMTP id i19mr75470rvn.28.1269806486565; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:01:26 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.255.17 with SMTP id c17ls3982247rvi.2.p; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.124.15 with SMTP id b15mr688689rvn.0.1269806485076; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.124.15 with SMTP id b15mr688688rvn.0.1269806485046; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.3]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si868464pzk.14.2010.03.28.13.01.24; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.3 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of nobody@digitalkingdom.org) client-ip=69.17.117.3; Received: (qmail 31255 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2010 20:01:24 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 28 Mar 2010 20:01:24 -0000 Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Nvyfj-0005rb-UX for lojban@googlegroups.com; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:01:24 -0700 Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Nvyfj-0005rP-6g for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:01:23 -0700 Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:01:23 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: la .alis. Message-ID: <20100328200123.GN6600@digitalkingdom.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org References: <425e4ac21002011729t4b51c16epd167881bb4293ce2@mail.gmail.com> <20100202020339.GA1952@digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.3 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of nobody@digitalkingdom.org) smtp.mail=nobody@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/f6eb5d08fee85068 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/df1740887fd5718c Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a sort of follow-on general comment here: No-one's actually going to *stop* you doing as you like with the "la .alis." text. Well, xorxes could, but I think he already public-domained it? Anyways, we're not going to sue you or anything like that. I doubt that we'd even get as far as the LLG publically denouncing it (although it's not outside the realm of possibility if the chosen orthography is particularly un-Lojbanic). Some of us will just be cranky about it. Just wanted to make that super-clear. My own significant crankiness about the whole idea aside, I appreciate that you've come back to the community to discuss it; I wasn't expecting that after the IRC interaction. -Robin On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 01:45:35PM -0400, Matt Arnold wrote: > Mr. Everson, >=20 > I would welcome publishing Alice in Wonderland in Lojban. As you point > out, that already exists. If you want to publish it the way you > describe, that's fine-- so long as you don't call it Lojban, because > it isn't. >=20 > If you capitalize proper names and the start of sentences, it's not > Lojban. Maybe it's better! But it's not what Lojban is. Lojban is > handed down ex-cathedra with no regard for usage. As a graphic > designer with twelve years experience in the publishing industry, I > have always found the traditional Latin capitalization structure to be > more readable. But that is the first time anyone here has ever heard > me say that. It is also probably the last. Because I don't care. All > it would mean is that your non-Lojban would be more legible than > Lojban. If so, that is a far larger issue than the small question of > you publishing a book. And that larger issue is permanently settled, > beyond even my reach. Do not confuse the two issues. >=20 > Thanks for your inquiry, and thanks for taking our response so well. >=20 > Sincerely, > Matt Arnold > President, Board of Directors, Logical Language Group >=20 >=20 > On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Evertype wro= te: > > Robin said: > > > > He "offered" to publish it for us. > > > > I suggested that I might publish it, yes. > > > > He then insisted on changing the layout and punctuation to match > > English, and refused to publish it any other way. > > > > Layout? The layout is in paragraphs, which match one-to-one with > > Carroll's paragraphs. In terms of fonts, yes, I would use Liberty and > > De Vinne and Mona Lisa Recut and the Engraver's fonts. > > > > English? No, the suggestion was not to "match English", but to take > > advantage of some conventions which have been common to all Latin- > > script languages for centuries. > > > > Refused? You've already got a 69-page monofont text (looks like TeX to > > me) PDF available, and electronic formats which your computers can > > parse. What value would there be in me putting out a similar edition > > -- especially in the context of a range of translations of Alice? > > > > Currently published are Cornish, English, Esperanto, German, and > > Irish. > > > > In the works are French, Italian, Manx, Scots, Shaw Alphabet, Swedish, > > Ulster Scots, and Welsh. > > > > Possibilities are at least Afrikaans, Danish, Dutch, Lojban, and > > Scottish Gaelic. > > > > That is, he wanted it to look like this: > > > > Mi klama la Bast,n. I la Bab cusku "lu mi klama li'u" > > > > Not quite. But I'd be very interested to talk with people about the > > various options one might have for punctuation markup. > > > > Caps at start of sentences, quote marks, a few other things I can't > > remember. > > > > Caps for proper names (la Alis), and anomalous stress marked by acute > > accents rather than by capitalization (which is thereby freed for > > other use). Near as I can tell the only word in the text affected by > > this is "la meri,An" ("la Meri,=C1n" or "la Meri,=E1n"; the original is > > "Mary Ann"). > > > > We (people on IRC at the time), umm, kinda told him where to stick > > that idea. In pretty clear terms. > > > > My memory of the IRC was not so black and white. You, and some others, > > expressed a lack of interest in an edition with "Victorian" > > typography, and criticized the notion of doing so. But everyone did > > not share that view. Pages like http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Lojban+typog= raphy > > and http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Punctuation suggest that there is no > > blanket ban on punctuation, for instance. > > > > I don't think he likes us anymore. > > > > I like you fine. I just disagree with your stance on punctuation and > > typographic conventions. > > > > I also like Lewis Carroll, and good typography. I find long paragraphs > > with no clear visual indication of sentence boundaries to be > > bewildering. I am sure that computers and savants find it quite simple > > to parse. I as a multilingual trained linguist expert in writing > > systems, I still find it much easier to navigate the language when > > standard Latin-script conventions are used. > > > > My English and Cornish editions are used in Cornwall by learners who > > find it helpful to compare the two texts. Thing which helps learners > > to navigate a paragraph are sentence boundaries, capitalized proper > > names, question marks, and so on. > > > > Indeed, in http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter= 3.html, > > we find the following. > > > > "Technically, the period is an optional reminder to the reader of a > > mandatory pause that is dictated by the rules of the language; because > > these rules are unambiguous, a missing period can be inferred from > > otherwise correct text. Periods are included only as an aid to the > > reader." > > > > In for a penny, in for a pound. Full stops are not necessary; they are > > redundant. So too are quotation marks, and since anomalous stress can > > be more congenially marked with the acute accent (as in Spanish) than > > by SHOUTING, there's no reason an edition of a text could not choose > > to do that, and thereby permit capital letters to be used, > > redundantly, to mark the beginnings of sentences, proper names, and > > whatnot. > > > > You, Robin, and maybe even many Lojbanists, might believe that such > > redundancy is irrelevant, un-useful, wrong-headed, ugly, stupid, or > > just plain "wrong". I rather doubt that all 464 members of this > > discussion forum will hold such extreme views, though. Redundancy is > > harmless -- indeed, we don't speak with punctuation marks in English > > or Irish or any other languages. Lojban's "audio-visual isomorphism" > > is extremely cool. But centuries of Latin typographic practice have > > evolved because those practices are *useful* to readers (as useful as > > the full stop) and I can see no reason not to pursue my project just > > because you and a few others on IRC, "umm, kinda told me where to > > stick" the idea. > > > > I would appreciate it if anyone who *is* interested in this would say > > so, as I'd like to discuss the options regarding redundant markup of > > quoted material. > > > > Best regards, > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@google= groups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lo= jban?hl=3Den. > > > > >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 They say: "The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons." And I'm thinking: "Does it even occur to you to try for something other than the default outcome?" See http://shrunklink.com/cdiz http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.