From 3c7avSw8JBiUNJDIBFM.FWFSTPOHNBJM.DPNMPKCBOHPPHMFHSPVQT.DPN@groups.bounces.google.com Sun Mar 28 13:05:35 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3c7avSw8JBiUNJDIBFM.FWFSTPOHNBJM.DPNMPKCBOHPPHMFHSPVQT.DPN@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nvyjh-0006Pg-DZ for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:05:34 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf16688856gyd.16 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:05:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:mime-version :subject:from:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HblBsYgVXCPi5lbHBMg07kNRxlK7bJBLmLrXfZLchZo=; b=JIgVI+iCHWjqtevmEwrdpY8qCpkFSv/rMcFB/y/zPAKsWyAr+6q/7wiwXC53tDrO0z O14iFdHQ50uuvbeoeWwIb4Q8dOTUDiQ5vpwKlE7vNwpwmGOfhuOU3sQ8Muke3n510rEx jqIIDtbHRLCc7jpr6eU6cNna5MeF3Nr2kN8+k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=zXGtHw7Tlc119Iee4yjS8fjo1ukUsI5YO2Mij/0V0gsAY/NcbWHqVW6ziq3P6rUORN gZFM+4HLD7NEhN6ZmRKyVmCLhBdGXu9X17i8Rl4ND2qjpKheDYazfoQ+nZo6EG3SdpNi w4vLeMeEQ/4nQUPqi2xyc4QmARIHYpURcmoNs= Received: by 10.91.82.17 with SMTP id j17mr293950agl.4.1269806707729; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:05:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.32.206 with SMTP id e14ls4453366bkd.2.p; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.163.19 with SMTP id y19mr241883bkx.22.1269806705899; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.163.19 with SMTP id y19mr241882bkx.22.1269806705880; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f50.google.com (mail-ww0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a12si4161848bkb.0.2010.03.28.13.05.04; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.50; Received: by wwi14 with SMTP id 14so4229390wwi.23 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.89.203 with SMTP id c53mr2460309wef.79.1269806704544; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (murrisk2.westnet.ie [88.81.100.235]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p37sm11567078gvf.28.2010.03.28.13.05.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: la .alis. From: Michael Everson In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 21:05:01 +0100 Message-Id: <2D15035A-1466-4678-864D-B0FA3CA1CBF4@gmail.com> References: <425e4ac21002011729t4b51c16epd167881bb4293ce2@mail.gmail.com> <20100202020339.GA1952@digitalkingdom.org> To: lojban X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=michael.everson@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: michael.everson@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/f6eb5d08fee85068 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/9d13ea56a7b1eed Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr Arnold, On 28 Mar 2010, at 18:45, Matt Arnold wrote: > I would welcome publishing Alice in Wonderland in Lojban. As you point ou= t, that already exists. If you want to publish it the way you describe, tha= t's fine-- so long as you don't call it Lojban, because it isn't. I don't believe I agree with this. It would be Lojban in *non-standard orth= ography*, to be sure. But a language is not its writing system.=20 Is Lojban written in Tengwar still Lojban?=20 Is Lojban written in Cyrillic still Lojban?=20 Is English written in IPA still English?=20 Is Yiddish written in Latin still Yiddish? > If you capitalize proper names and the start of sentences, it's not Lojba= n. It's not standard Lojban orthography. The language tag for it would be "jbo= " however. And if such a text were read out into podcast, it would be impos= sible to tell whether it were written in (1) standard Lojban orthography, (= 2) ad-hoc Victorian orthography, or (3) not written down at all but recited= from memory. It would be the *same* language. I am sure that my foreword would begin "This book does not use standard Loj= ban orthography." > Maybe it's better! But it's not what Lojban is. Lojban is handed down ex-= cathedra with no regard for usage. Is it?=20 > As a graphic designer with twelve years experience in the publishing indu= stry, I have always found the traditional Latin capitalization structure to= be more readable. It has been successfully used for hundreds of languages for centuries, that= much is certain. > But that is the first time anyone here has ever heard me say that. It is = also probably the last. Because I don't care. All it would mean is that you= r non-Lojban would be more legible than Lojban. All it would mean is that my non-standard orthography might be more legible= than standard orthography.=20 > If so, that is a far larger issue than the small question of you publishi= ng a book. And that larger issue is permanently settled, beyond even my rea= ch. Do not confuse the two issues. As I said, I am not interested in reforming standard orthography. That is o= utside my remit. I am interested in the conceit of a "Victorian orthography= " for this particular book, in part because I think that just pouring the t= ext into my Alice template and setting some fonts for it will look, well, p= retty bad. I use **drop caps** at the beginning of every chapter for one th= ing.=20 > Thanks for your inquiry, and thanks for taking our response so well. And thanks for not burning me at the stake. :-) > Sincerely, > Matt Arnold > President, Board of Directors, Logical Language Group Best, Michael --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.