From 3fsavSwgSBkAtnrqygnnfkikvcnmkpifqo.qtinqldcpiqqingitqwru.eqo@groups.bounces.google.com Sun Mar 28 14:13:59 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3fsavSwgSBkAtnrqygnnfkikvcnmkpifqo.qtinqldcpiqqingitqwru.eqo@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nvznv-0001tk-Gp for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 14:13:58 -0700 Received: by pwi3 with SMTP id 3sf3098647pwi.16 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 14:13:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; bh=kZJ0bMgkvj/eRB7R0YfutJvMC4EFNdkX314xhkFWDJ4=; b=aApnbMm7B8N9jTDbIT2NqzO8eJmv1dDLtRDeSFMMBGAdjSBPqG+F4OtjvH9adN+Y4T 60hUFT+3u5N42lICMRsSTpbtfK2UjzLjrHY3ayuHTLiCFrUQ6xhOgRa/4vAMvrUFmXTr hYlISAbQWd1xci8XO32uMJCbdS06lbdIqy36s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; b=rZPxfrLHdd3y9ETrakEU/NS7C5U53TnbLBsm9axp4FXJV+n2WYhk/ZFvkVCSGC6pSP 1wk5iL/i+u63NpGGMf/jB/KGAKTPolyCe45FtCBeZnqd5sug7cIAcDEQXZvivxG1uzAZ DCem2xVWk26tGaqpnQ4WRu9/Hmq7uRU7F1Kmk= Received: by 10.115.100.14 with SMTP id c14mr192929wam.24.1269810814059; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 14:13:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.115.67.27 with SMTP id u27ls90137wak.2.p; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 14:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.115.67.38 with SMTP id u38mr800830wak.17.1269810812644; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 14:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.115.67.38 with SMTP id u38mr800829wak.17.1269810812624; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 14:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.6]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si872550pzk.10.2010.03.28.14.13.32; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 14:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.6 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org) client-ip=69.17.117.6; Received: (qmail 23888 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2010 21:13:32 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 28 Mar 2010 21:13:32 -0000 Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NvznW-0001tF-NV for lojban@googlegroups.com; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 14:13:31 -0700 Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 14:13:30 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. Message-ID: <20100328211330.GP6600@digitalkingdom.org> References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <925d17561003280714y30d5eb1fo19b9f97eb6902eaa@mail.gmail.com> <4BAF7446.6070008@gmail.com> <20100328192909.GG6600@digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.6 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/f515b1cebb4fc484 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 09:03:56PM +0100, Michael Everson wrote: > On 28 Mar 2010, at 20:29, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > I'll speak up (briefly, since it wasn't requested) for that > > side: I won't buy a book claiming to be Lojban that uses > > seriously non-Lojban-standard typographic conventions, > > Fair enough. Does that mean you wouldn't buy such a book if it > were in Tengwar? I would not, but for different reasons (Tengwar is a crappy writing system; too much self-similarity). The problem I have is that the primary Lojban orthography uses Latin characters, and what I very much do not want is to have people showing up and using a non-standard Latin character orthography and pointing at a published book as justification. > > and I will decry it to anyone who asks. > > That seems mean-spirited. :-( It's not particularily intended that way. As one of the half-dozen-or-so people who most often has to deal with newbies coming up with obnoxious crap ("Why can't Lojban be in hexademical?" took up many hours of my time once, for example), I feel fully justified taking steps in advance to avoid additional rounds of such annoyance. > Ca'n't you enjoy a bit of fun? (Note how I wrote "ca'n't" there -- > just as Carroll did.) Certainly, when the bit of fun doesn't add to my workload around here. Again, as the hardest working person in the community, for ... at least the last 5 years, if not longer (with the possible exception of Matt Arnold since he took over the book fulfillment), not pointlessly adding to the crap I have to deal with is high on my priority list. > Ca'n't you appreciate an exercise in typography using Victorian > conventions for a Victorian book? That's a vacuous argument; are you saying that you would use Victorian typographic conventions for a version published in Hebrew? > > There is an exception, however: I care very little about how > > stress is indicated. Stress marking (specifically between using > > caps or using an accent mark) has been a long-standing point of > > largely non-acrimonious discussion; as far as I can tell, that's > > an issue on which the community is somewhat divided, but no-one > > really cares all that much. > > So... you're flexible when you wish to be. Fair enough. :-) I suppose. I'm flexible about things that are not yet 100% formalized, or that are specifically formalized as flexible, or where a good reason by my standards exists; "capitalizing the whole syllable looks ugly/like shouting" seems valid to me; "capitalize proper names because that's how English does it" most *certainly* does not. A lot of people in the community (myself included obviously) are really, *really* averse to any changes that are specifically brought in from natural languages, *especially* English. I only speak two languages comfortably; English, and Lojban. I have to work really hard to avoid my English corrupting my Lojban, and I do so because if I wanted English, I'd just speak English. Having someone from outside the community try to apply English conventions to Lojban and then publish it really bothers me because it's exactly the opposite of what many of us are trying to do, and publishing it means it'll be preserved for posterity, so that future generations of newbies can make our lives more difficult. (I suppose one could argue that "all caps is shouting" is an English convention, but I tend to think of it as an Internet convention; *shrug*) > > Contrast this with using captials to mark the beginning of > > sentences or proper names which, as And says, is very much > > not-OK to most Lojbanists. > > Well, I'm certainly not the first person to take an interest in > such a convention, according to the archives of this list. Sure, > plenty of people don't care for it, but at the end of the day I'm > not trying to do any harm. I'm aware you're not *trying* to. You're going to succeed, though. -Robin -- They say: "The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons." And I'm thinking: "Does it even occur to you to try for something other than the default outcome?" See http://shrunklink.com/cdiz http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.