From 3qxSwSwQNBrsqinbqinb.pquvt.ovmpkcbohpphmfhspvqt.dpn@groups.bounces.google.com Sun Mar 28 19:47:34 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f139.google.com ([209.85.221.139]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3qxSwSwQNBrsqinbqinb.pquvt.ovmpkcbohpphmfhspvqt.dpn@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nw50j-0004oX-Fu for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:47:33 -0700 Received: by qyk4 with SMTP id 4sf17321207qyk.27 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:47:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:received:received:from:to:subject:date:user-agent :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=5ZgeMWhnoGj/SPErbp6GUl4nyu0zlInkGMu+nKnBMSk=; b=f8W5UYuJmodWN+T8HM6AodbmVteDjqkm5CGsC7i34BgRVIo5m9OYBTV1DYY2evghLM NR8kPgLN2J+XQ2PmBS/ncbIfrTbVm6HguThd2Fp03eJzXA+tvPT/jQUL5EX++gZ+KMuv q1VZ5BLLklQy1ddLCqz1wCemFj0WJn7Mw56Sw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references :in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=DdFKxalBk2IWYHiNqHYAJoMrKsg8MlYyNZRTjk4O8VM3BsQT0JvrB555uORrgNcgpP 0UdqQsx8xW/Urr9ukT6QpETtEvYnbggmsE0kv9OCezsJ2oyvJik8Ids7RjPnGO/rBiQ2 HltCxhUQ8m9UKwtVjbaO+c4m6AznZ0Sf+3tAY= Received: by 10.224.114.131 with SMTP id e3mr211654qaq.22.1269830827359; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:47:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.92.132 with SMTP id r4ls4664526qam.1.p; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.44.95 with SMTP id z31mr553503qae.16.1269830825929; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.44.95 with SMTP id z31mr553502qae.16.1269830825889; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.122]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si455332qyk.12.2010.03.28.19.47.05; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.122 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) client-ip=75.180.132.122; X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=ORa4HqFjfvEA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=QVSiQbng0iBQ7tcOMvsA:9 a=5xrsIaptY0laE1f4voZj3BagRfAA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 71.71.198.100 Received: from [71.71.198.100] ([71.71.198.100:58163] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id D5/64-25940-8A410BB4; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 02:47:05 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60CB619D for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 22:47:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 22:46:57 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <925d17561003280714y30d5eb1fo19b9f97eb6902eaa@mail.gmail.com> <4BAF7446.6070008@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4BAF7446.6070008@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201003282246.59201.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.122 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) smtp.mail=phma@phma.optus.nu X-Original-Sender: phma@phma.optus.nu Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/b5e8e3856a257aac Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday 28 March 2010 11:22:46 And Rosta wrote: > I'm interested too, and in the general question of how to reconcile the > highly evolved traditions of roman typography with Lojban. But it's > probably realistic to recognize that most Lojbanists have no interest in > such reconciliation, and would wish for the typography to be wholly > subjugated to prevailing Lojban conventions. The traditions of Roman typography evolved with the languages written in it= ,=20 most of which, as they evolved, were Indo-European. I've read in a book abo= ut=20 Turkish, which is a relative newcomer to the alphabet and has its own=20 convention (shared with a few related languages) about dots on "i", that th= e=20 use of the comma in Turkish can be confusing to a native English speaker. Lojban is quite different from other languages written in the Latin alphabe= t.=20 None of them that I know uses spoken quotation marks (though the ending=20 quotation mark is spoken "iti" in Sanskrit) or sentence separators. I don't= =20 see a problem with writing a punctuation mark for a quotation, but it's not= =20 obvious which side of the word "lu" or the delimiter it should go on. I see no problem with punctuation marks in Lojban, though some particular= =20 marks pose difficulties: *The comma may be written at the end of a word to signal a pause in thought= ,=20 or several elided terminators in a row, but if it follows a cmevla or=20 precedes a word beginning with a vowel, the period must be written too.=20 That's because the comma, inside a word, indicates a syllable break with no= =20 pause, so "la litc, e la alkuist" is equivalent to "la litce la .alkuist". *The period is commonly written both before and after words to indicate=20 pauses, and between words with no spaces to indicate semantically joined=20 words that have to have a pause, such as "na.e" and "kot.divu=E1r". If we'r= e=20 going to use abbreviations, then (and some unit symbols, such as "ku" (=3Dk= Da),=20 are identical to words), we have to use something other than a period to ma= rk=20 them. I've suggested the hyphen, but I'm not sure that's the right choice. The question mark and exclamation mark, I think, should come at the end of = the=20 sentence, not next to the question word. The only other language I know of= =20 which punctuates the question word is Armenian. On Sunday 28 March 2010 14:25:28 Adam Mesha (Raizen) wrote: > Using only characters that are in the ASCII character set was a design go= al > of the standard Lojban orthography, and an acute accent mark does not fit > with that design goal. (Lojban was designed by Americans :-). The orthography was designed the year before the first draft proposal of=20 Unicode was published. As Unicode is now widely available on computers, I= =20 think that that design goal should be dropped. I think that the accent mark= ,=20 for indicating stress, looks better than a capital letter. If I were capitalizing sentences, I'd capitalize the word after ".i", not= =20 the ".i" itself. The word after ".i" can begin with any letter except "'"= =20 (which doesn't have a capital form). This is like Afrikaans, in which=20 sentences often begin with "'n" (the indefinite article), and the word=20 after "'n", rather than "'n" itself, is capitalized. Pierre --=20 li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.