From 3IHuwSw8JBpcD93815C.5M5IJFE7D19C.3FDCFA21E7FF7C57IFLGJ.3FD@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 03:04:52 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f143.google.com ([209.85.211.143]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3IHuwSw8JBpcD93815C.5M5IJFE7D19C.3FDCFA21E7FF7C57IFLGJ.3FD@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwBpm-0002Mm-Dx for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:04:51 -0700 Received: by ywh7 with SMTP id 7sf17527709ywh.26 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:04:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:mime-version :subject:from:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CZgTlwsCBaetSBeuoV6PFsihFUQT0+d61Uycrht5p0g=; b=xqvsCLZqxTRtBZZEQIUV9DlspgWKc7gQnmqH9BIEyhEPzsYtiWYaPXcrVfcwufk8/C /tHkQL+fwxlKJUxGzc+guWIFDbzyyikDe2ghiiinHdRR1y3ItQUxyaSnawH6vwNDXNTk gLXkoahPvg5U8uVBVNuQrLRpeK6ThUtkkHbGk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=dchTD/JGO8u8WoYwu0o0v9hzH6Unuqmt87MtqmG2ZsktbBGXhv3KmV6hwjF6RxnhxD 4zTdfKJ9KHpYXGKQiq8rAh047er3+FQxTJlaJPO5peDMjleRQ+fvceWhiH6U4LFsDURm Ge4dYpwL+lgWGfKImsYq1BO6hDWfOHVawCSnY= Received: by 10.91.84.20 with SMTP id m20mr132004agl.51.1269857056082; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:04:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.35.68 with SMTP id o4ls2480206bkd.1.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.163.19 with SMTP id y19mr282976bkx.22.1269857051168; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.163.19 with SMTP id y19mr282975bkx.22.1269857051099; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f53.google.com (mail-ww0-f53.google.com [74.125.82.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id e24si4940561bke.2.2010.03.29.03.04.09; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.53; Received: by mail-ww0-f53.google.com with SMTP id 22so5888273wwb.26 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.88.136 with SMTP id a8mr58779wef.77.1269857049622; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (murrisk2.westnet.ie [88.81.100.235]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x6sm12716616gvf.27.2010.03.29.03.04.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Michael Everson In-Reply-To: <925d17561003281729t30ffbfcbge6209c18f8d01d36@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:04:05 +0100 Message-Id: <96E08F3C-5DB3-4601-A112-425F8182DB0C@gmail.com> References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <925d17561003280714y30d5eb1fo19b9f97eb6902eaa@mail.gmail.com> <4BAF7446.6070008@gmail.com> <20100328192909.GG6600@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003281729t30ffbfcbge6209c18f8d01d36@mail.gmail.com> To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=michael.everson@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: michael.everson@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/f5f5619c92ef2a5c Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 29 Mar 2010, at 01:29, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > I think the only place caps are used in the translation is in: >=20 > lu la'e di'u krinu le nu zo CILRE cmene i jdika le ka temci kei lo cacra = be li ba'e CI ca ro djedi be li ba'e RE li'u >=20 > Italics is probably a much better idea than caps for that. I'd agree there. (That's near the end of Chapter IX.) > But I think the more interesting typographical question for Alice is not = so much the use of capitals, but how to mark dialogue/quotes. I find lu"..= ."li'u quite hideous. I much prefer =ABlu ... li'u=BB, which I think is wh= at the ju'i lobypli used to use. Well, I would certainly use guillemets and not comma-quotation marks becaus= e of the very common use of apostrophe as a letter throughout the text. On 29 Mar 2010, at 03:57, Leo Molas wrote: > As you said, there are many alternatives for the actual alphabet, and man= y discussions about orthography alternatives. However, the way we use it co= mmonly is the way you'll read it in the IRC or in the books. I'm aware of that. > There might be better ways to write lojban, and you may writing it better= than us, but the way we write it's the way we like to read it. (I re-wrote= that sentence to not be *that* tautological). I understand what you mean. > Of course, the way we write it might be modified for good, but that shoul= d be done by the community, more specifically by the LLG (since it's an ex-= cathedra language and all that stuff). >=20 > You can, of course, publish your book the way you want. The problem will = be that that will not be written lojban. It could be another isomorphism fr= om some writings to lojban, but not what's known as written lojban. As John has pointed out, Tengwar and Cyrillic orthographies differ from sta= ndard Lojban orthography, so this variation is just another. > For example, I could write a book in English, but I change all characters= 'a' with 'u', and all 'u' with '#' (saying it's because it's more beautifu= l or readable). This is not analogous to what I am interested in doing.=20 > It would be a pain in the ass for all the English speakers, and, assuming= it's actually better, is not going to > really help anyone, since new speakers will be confused. The analogue would be to publish a book in English with all its punctuation= removed and with all capital letters converted to small letters. > And about this last point, if anyone get who doesn't speak lojban, and is= interested, he or she will be confused when he start learning lojban. I th= ink this would be the worst part. Actually I personally have never made any headway in understanding how Lojb= an worked before I tried to parse it with punctuation.=20 > You claim that "centuries of Latin typographic practice have evolved beca= use those practices are *useful* to readers", well, that's assuming that th= ey actually evolved. Of course they did. See Parkes, M. B. 1992. Pause and Effect: An Introduction to the History of Pun= ctuation in the West. Berkeley: University of California Press. ISBN 0-520-07941-8 > It's not true until it's proved. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuation#History > Take the natural languages, for example. They evolved for centuries, as w= ell as their written versions, but they have so many problems, that led us = to develop a language trying to prevent all this faults. Punctuation and capitalization is mark-up. It *adds* information. So long a= s it is used judiciously, I cannot see how it might be related to the kind = of "fault" to which you refer. On 29 Mar 2010, at 05:44, John Cowan wrote: > Robin Lee Powell scripsit: >=20 >> "capitalize proper names because that's how English does it" most *certa= inly* does not. >=20 > Not just English, but essentially *every* language written in Latin, Gree= k, or Cyrillic, which amounts to a huge fraction of all the written languag= es on the planet. Also, FWIW, Loglan., which originally used > upper/lower case as Lojban does. I found this, which is pretty cool: http://www.loglan.org/Texts/la-mioskun.= html Michael --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.