From 3Ad6wSwcJBtsBVBLKRPDJ7FI.9LJILG87KDLLDIBDOLRMP.9LJ@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 10:06:39 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3Ad6wSwcJBtsBVBLKRPDJ7FI.9LJILG87KDLLDIBDOLRMP.9LJ@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwIQ2-00033F-Px for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:06:38 -0700 Received: by gwb1 with SMTP id 1sf8895252gwb.16 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:06:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=z+0lujy5uIO6JLL2Dnh+CeKrmy+/oqiedbRbUIEVSDA=; b=A1zC5cIuCTsQSOzRTNcLd93ZWJckUMwYkDUGhfzLOM8GNEXKg4e0DIA6ISWrizswqp pQhEkbSIpUCMgqpjB/nraSvM6f+bufQmbWkd6+gxPCKulTlkw810O7QRXGtgveyOu/mR tcfnOuj1591gC/L5/AK1z7VpEior47Z5OrnlE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=A4mWoWIWBAk1seNKzBl7P5a+MeVk1QvvD8r8QtlgzP3p6kini8iimZO7WaRM83Rdz9 8OCnIZ1qy/HwvxStUxvHUHoCLogSPxL17pMF3aB8SMjUI4Q+mnxZxln7WVkXbdvAb99G KuN2TmpK8lKhqq+dwD6iSiBAmRIARXFZ1ZHco= Received: by 10.101.176.18 with SMTP id d18mr94124anp.2.1269882369503; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:06:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.6.87 with SMTP id 23ls4857872bky.0.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.22.69 with SMTP id m5mr27322bkb.39.1269882364966; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.22.69 with SMTP id m5mr27321bkb.39.1269882364895; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f41.google.com (mail-ww0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id v26si4304222bkt.7.2010.03.29.10.06.03; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.41; Received: by mail-ww0-f41.google.com with SMTP id 18so36469wwb.14 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:06:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.2.209 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:06:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <925d17561003280714y30d5eb1fo19b9f97eb6902eaa@mail.gmail.com> <5BD9338A-1033-49E9-9A75-49046469DE95@gmail.com> <702226df1003290731i3cbaeb3fs9db2d49a667273b1@mail.gmail.com> <44AE9DF1-8DD8-4134-895C-054AA27AE1EC@gmail.com> <702226df1003290810r9685560v7ef251bdfb421911@mail.gmail.com> <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:06:02 -0600 Received: by 10.216.86.203 with SMTP id w53mr94556wee.71.1269882363162; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <702226df1003291006o242c37a8q6bc5ea53b6e6377d@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/2ac6e916b6612895 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d7f07a29b2dd0482f3876e --0016e6d7f07a29b2dd0482f3876e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Leo Molas wrote: > El 29/03/2010 12:10 p.m., Jonathan Jones escribi=C3=B3: > > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Michael Everson > > > wrote: > > > > On 29 Mar 2010, at 15:31, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 2:58 AM, Michael Everson > > > > wrote: > > > > > >>> You want to use Gothic letters and what-not, fine. You want to > > use special fonts, fine. Just don't mess with the standard Lojban > > typographic conventions and we've got no problems. > > >> > > >> Except that the book is then a whole mess of lower-case letters > > with no punctuation. > > > > > > Lojban is written in lower-case letters with no punctuation. I > > don't see a problem. > > > > OK. Fine. My goal is to treat Lojban not like an oddball, but as a > > full citizen of the community of languages which enjoy fine Latin > > typography. Perhaps you do not see this as an interesting or > > valuable goal, but it is nevertheless the goal which I have. > > > > I don't see Lojban as being a member of the community of languages that > > use Latin typography. I don't see Lojban written in Cyrillic script as = a > > member of the community of languages that use Cyrillic typography. I > > don't see Lojban written in Tengwar script as being a member of the > > community of languages that use Tengwar typography. > > > > I see Lojban as being of member of the community of languages that use > > Lojban typography, and happens to use Latin characters as it's official > > orthography. I see Lojban typography (, and bny extension, Loglan > > typography,) as cousin to the various Asain typographies, which do not > > have punctuation marks, like Lojban, do not need spaces, like Lojban, > > have words for what most languages use vocal tones and/or word order to > > indicate, like Lojban. I do not presume to say the Lojban is the same a= s > > Asian languages, I merely point out that Lojban has more similarities, > > in these matters, with the Asian languages, than with the European ones= . > > > > > > In my view, just pouring a whole mess of lower-case letters with no > > punctuation into my Alice template would not result in "fine Latin > > typography". > > > > > > Neither do I. I, unlike you, consider that a good thing. I don't > > /want/ Lojban written with "fine Latin typography". > > > > > > Michael > > > > -- > > > -- > > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > > > .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu > > > > I think this is a good point in all of this. Lojban is not written in > Latin typography; Lojban has a typogrphy that uses Latin a part of its > alphabet and a part of its punctuation, using it in another way. Lojban > uses this alphabet, to be compatible with everyone's keyboard; not with > Latin typography. > The thing is, typography and orthopgraphy are not the same thing. Lojban uses the Latin *orthography*, but it does not use the Latin * typography*. ty=C2=B7pog=C2=B7ra=C2=B7phy =E2=80=82 =E2=80=82/ta=C9=AA=CB=88p=C9=92gr=C9=99fi/ *Show Spelled= * [tahy-*pog*-r*uh*-fee] *Show IPA* *=E2=80=93noun* 1. the art or process of printing with type. 2. the work of setting and arranging types and of printing from them. 3. the general character or appearance of printed matter. or=C2=B7thog=C2=B7ra=C2=B7phy =E2=80=82 =E2=80=82/=C9=94r=CB=88=CE=B8=C9=92gr=C9=99fi/ *Show Spelled= * [awr-*thog*-r*uh*-fee] *Show IPA* *=E2=80=93noun,plural-phies *for 3=E2=80=935. 1. the art of writing words with the proper letters, according to accepted usage; correct spelling. 2. the part of language study concerned with letters and spelling. 3. a method of spelling, as by the use of an alphabet or other system of symbols; spelling. 4. a system of such symbols: *Missionaries provided the first orthography for the language. * 5. an orthographic projection, or an elevation drawn by means of it. > mu'omi'e .leos. > > -- > My lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpress.com > My personal blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e6d7f07a29b2dd0482f3876e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Leo Molas <leos.molas@gmail.= com> wrote:
El 29/03/2010 12:10 p.m., Jonath= an Jones escribi=C3=B3:
> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Michael Everson
=
> <mic= hael.everson@gmail.com <mailto:michael.everson@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> =C2=A0= =C2=A0 On 29 Mar 2010, at 15:31, Jonathan Jones wrote:
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 2:58 AM, Michael Ev= erson
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <michael.everson@gmail.com <mailto:michael.everson@gmail.com>> wrote:
> = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> You want to use Gothic letters and what-not= , fine. You want to
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 use special fonts, fine. Just don= 't mess with the standard Lojban
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 typographic conv= entions and we've got no problems.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Except that the = book is then a whole mess of lower-case letters
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 with = no punctuation.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Lojba= n is written in lower-case letters with no punctuation. I
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 don't see a problem.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 O= K. Fine. My goal is to treat Lojban not like an oddball, but as a
> = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 full citizen of the community of languages which enjoy fine L= atin
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 typography. Perhaps you do not see this as an in= teresting or
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 valuable goal, but it is nevertheless the goal which I h= ave.
>
> I don't see Lojban as being a member of the commun= ity of languages that
> use Latin typography. I don't see Lojban = written in Cyrillic script as a
> member of the community of languages that use Cyrillic typography. I> don't see Lojban written in Tengwar script as being a member of = the
> community of languages that use Tengwar typography.
>
> I see Lojban as being of member of the community of languages that use=
> Lojban typography, and happens to use Latin characters as it's= official
> orthography. I see Lojban typography (, and bny extension= , Loglan
> typography,) as cousin to the various Asain typographies, which do not=
> have punctuation marks, like Lojban, do not need spaces, like Lojb= an,
> have words for what most languages use vocal tones and/or word = order to
> indicate, like Lojban. I do not presume to say the Lojban is the same = as
> Asian languages, I merely point out that Lojban has more similar= ities,
> in these matters, with the Asian languages, than with the Eu= ropean ones.
>
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 In my view, just pouring a whole mess of= lower-case letters with no
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 punctuation into my Alice= template would not result in "fine Latin
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 typogr= aphy".
>
>
> Neither do I. I, unlike you, consider that a good thing. I don't> /want/ Lojban written with "fine Latin typography".
>= ;
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Michael
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
>= ; .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
>

I t= hink this is a good point in all of this. Lojban is not written in
Latin= typography; Lojban has a typogrphy that uses Latin a part of its
alphabet and a part of its punctuation, using it in another way. Lojban
= uses this alphabet, to be compatible with everyone's keyboard; not with=
Latin typography.
The thing is, typography and orthopgraphy are no= t the same thing.
Lojban uses the Latin orthography, but it d= oes not use the Latin typography.=20

ty=C2=B7pog=C2=B7ra=C2=B7phy<= /font>

=E2=80=82 <= param name=3D"Play" value=3D"0">=E2=80=82/ta=C9=AA=CB=88p=C9=92g3D""r=C9=993D""fi<= /span>/ Show Spelled= [tahy-pog-r= uh-fee] Show IPA
=E2=80=93noun=20
1. the art or proces= s of printing with type.
2. the work of setti= ng and arranging types and of printing from them.
3. the general chara= cter or appearance of printed matter.
=C2=A0
or=C2= =B7thog=C2=B7ra=C2=B7phy
=E2=80=82 <= param name=3D"Play" value=3D"0">=E2=80=82/=C9=94r=CB=88=CE=B8=C9=92g3D""r=C9=993D""fi/ Show Spel= led[awr-thog-ruh-fee] Show IPA
=E2=80=93noun,plural-phies for 3=E2=80=935.= =20
1. the art of writin= g words with the proper letters, according to accepted usage; correct spell= ing.
2. the part of langu= age study concerned with letters and spelling.
3. a method of spell= ing, as by the use of an alphabet or other system of symbols; spelling.
4. a system of such = symbols: Missionarie= s provided the first orthography for the language.
5. an orthographic p= rojection, or an elevation drawn by means of it.
=C2=A0
mu'omi'e .leos.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.= i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
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