From 3I-ewSwcJBgcl5lvu1znthps.jvtsvqihunvvnslnyv1wz.jvt@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 10:45:36 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3I-ewSwcJBgcl5lvu1znthps.jvtsvqihunvvnslnyv1wz.jvt@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwJ1k-0005bX-QG for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:45:34 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf17575148gyd.16 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:45:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=9riXfyJWYrcepIZ4hNot/vvKreRditeDQShlHkmRCAE=; b=xpV+idwhwZIYwmtniP7KD+yg9bj/y47l7Or6iTCJaYO2HdXXd6z1yks9eBzIH3NB8y kujSHDIldRxH33Law2JIhzL5uBHBi/aXopGYMQyKtw7YWiS800uwKqh7eIEn38q/lIVG j/7ZGcnWcAkITF4cUIZW330mGQki4DXv+U/jM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=ELsHfH2NN1RDaEhVEnla+G5BiVGbUNP7N4VyX82xBto39CIHTfC2Vc5XxFr980Ecoe EwTWrfCyzPhmxoqhRs7XPhXW8Ie1jhKRQVCT70lJXyWO2djGcH8io90Jnv/OsqloxMaD FKg0NXSoVBL/rjJZqk9rj4FbacBpw+fIVKhHw= Received: by 10.151.33.3 with SMTP id l3mr40389ybj.6.1269884707717; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:45:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.6.87 with SMTP id 23ls4876866bky.0.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.16.81 with SMTP id n17mr321541bka.31.1269884704347; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.16.81 with SMTP id n17mr321540bka.31.1269884704282; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f41.google.com (mail-ww0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a12si5403776bkb.0.2010.03.29.10.45.01; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.41; Received: by wwb18 with SMTP id 18so64560wwb.0 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:45:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.2.209 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:45:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <52AFCEFB-B7BD-4F2E-B8EB-9C90833DFFDE@gmail.com> References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <925d17561003280714y30d5eb1fo19b9f97eb6902eaa@mail.gmail.com> <5BD9338A-1033-49E9-9A75-49046469DE95@gmail.com> <702226df1003290731i3cbaeb3fs9db2d49a667273b1@mail.gmail.com> <44AE9DF1-8DD8-4134-895C-054AA27AE1EC@gmail.com> <702226df1003290810r9685560v7ef251bdfb421911@mail.gmail.com> <52AFCEFB-B7BD-4F2E-B8EB-9C90833DFFDE@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:45:01 -0600 Received: by 10.216.167.131 with SMTP id i3mr119024wel.94.1269884701559; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <702226df1003291045vd5f73aau73fe6c997a713f37@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/a8965d81587e315d Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6542d328aca950482f4126a --0016e6542d328aca950482f4126a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Michael Everson wrote: > On 29 Mar 2010, at 16:10, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > >> OK. Fine. My goal is to treat Lojban not like an oddball, but as a full > citizen of the community of languages which enjoy fine Latin typography. > Perhaps you do not see this as an interesting or valuable goal, but it is > nevertheless the goal which I have. > > > > I don't see Lojban as being a member of the community of languages that > use Latin typography. > > I don't see Lojban written in Cyrillic script as a member of the > community of languages that use Cyrillic typography. > > I don't see Lojban written in Tengwar script as being a member of the > community of languages that use Tengwar typography. > > OK, this is, erm, really illogical, if I dare use such a word before people > doubtless better at logic than I am. > > I don't follow this double-talk really. Latin typography is an attribute of > the Latin script. > > > I see Lojban as being of member of the community of languages that use > Lojban typography, and happens to use Latin characters as it's official > orthography. I see Lojban typography (, and bny extension, Loglan > typography,) as cousin to the various Asain typographies, which do not have > punctuation marks, like Lojban, do not need spaces, like Lojban, have words > for what most languages use vocal tones and/or word order to indicate, like > Lojban. > > Yeah, well, sure, except that lots of people are perfectly happy to > sanction the use of punctuation marks with Lojban, so at the least not > everyone shares your peculiar notions about what "orthography" and > "typography" are. I say that advisedly, because you're not using the terms > as anyone else does. Indeed it sounds like special pleading to avoid having > to see Lojban written with case or punctuation. I'm using the terms as they are defined in the English dictionary. > > I do not presume to say the Lojban is the same as Asian languages, I > merely point out that Lojban has more similarities, in these matters, with > the Asian languages, than with the European ones. > > Scripts have typography. Languages have orthography. > > Latin is not Burmese or Thai or Hiragana. > > >> In my view, just pouring a whole mess of lower-case letters with no > punctuation into my Alice template would not result in "fine Latin > typography". > > > > Neither do I. I, unlike you, consider that a good thing. I don't want > Lojban written with "fine Latin typography". > > OK. I'm sorry I won't satisfy your wish, because it is at odds with my > goal. > > Michael > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6542d328aca950482f4126a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Michael Everso= n <michae= l.everson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 29 Mar 2010, at 16:10, Jonathan Jones wrote:

&g= t;> OK. Fine. My goal is to treat Lojban not like an oddball, but as a f= ull citizen of the community of languages which enjoy fine Latin typography= . Perhaps you do not see this as an interesting or valuable goal, but it is= nevertheless the goal which I have.
>
> I don't see Lojban as being a member of the community of l= anguages that use Latin typography.
> I don't see Lojban written = in Cyrillic script as a member of the community of languages that use Cyril= lic typography.
> I don't see Lojban written in Tengwar script as being a member of = the community of languages that use Tengwar typography.

OK, th= is is, erm, really illogical, if I dare use such a word before people doubt= less better at logic than I am.

I don't follow this double-talk really. Latin typography is an attr= ibute of the Latin script.

> I see Lojban as being of member of the community= of languages that use Lojban typography, and happens to use Latin characte= rs as it's official orthography. I see Lojban typography (, and bny ext= ension, Loglan typography,) as cousin to the various Asain typographies, wh= ich do not have punctuation marks, like Lojban, do not need spaces, like Lo= jban, have words for what most languages use vocal tones and/or word order = to indicate, like Lojban.

Yeah, well, sure, except that lots of people are perfectly happy = to sanction the use of punctuation marks with Lojban, so at the least not e= veryone shares your peculiar notions about what "orthography" and= "typography" are. I say that advisedly, because you're not u= sing the terms as anyone else does. Indeed it sounds like special pleading = to avoid having to see Lojban written with case or punctuation.
=A0
I'm using the terms as they are defined in the English dictionary.=
=A0
> I do not presume to say the Lojban is the same as As= ian languages, I merely point out that Lojban has more similarities, in the= se matters, with the Asian languages, than with the European ones.

Scripts have typography. Languages have orthography.

Latin is = not Burmese or Thai or Hiragana.

>> In my view, just pouring a whole mess of low= er-case letters with no punctuation into my Alice template would not result= in "fine Latin typography".
>
> Neither do I. I, unl= ike you, consider that a good thing. I don't want Lojban written with &= quot;fine Latin typography".

OK. I'm sorry I won't satisfy your wish, because it is at= odds with my goal.

Michael

--
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To p= ost to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For= more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?h= l=3Den.




--
mu'= o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu=

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