From 3rOmwSwsJBpI7G60wx0D20928w47.yA87A5xw92AA2702DAGBE.yA8@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 10:56:26 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3rOmwSwsJBpI7G60wx0D20928w47.yA87A5xw92AA2702DAGBE.yA8@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwJCE-0006RF-1O for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:56:26 -0700 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32sf8341152ywh.28 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:56:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=JI9t2YQWw1FpA6KsodygZZ/0D+yILboNz5QQF0ZOQms=; b=t4eT6cKHMEdoet2kSznwsFuDduaAf3/mWCknxzQ6x7t1z8j3eOrknlZFK5z667JQA4 9nLPKPRmZ6RTVZpNAAsnSDGPjVWOkgcP/FEX5YTvP+Mb0zNCxvUyyvQjqzOgB0D1emmT 8dTHy1+afa373kfKoNjTPtB7KY666HVPiwXoE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=kWH6qyxMpVdMiGvaTruy8qGIbcD9sBNZyhbXoD7XfXQVgBYwXupKpYCo9eIH9nTY+p AO+bZRxfdAQ7d2zXkhWzyfAl5JzHHhslhh3IjYKJmopm/HsX74LDXv7qbodEW6n3CiEr HRhiGrC+61aAsHOt996tuN/920KlsvvWn1T14= Received: by 10.100.50.38 with SMTP id x38mr98593anx.44.1269885356710; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:55:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.50.148 with SMTP id z20ls36628ibf.2.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.190.16 with SMTP id dg16mr335972ibb.5.1269885355719; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.190.16 with SMTP id dg16mr335971ibb.5.1269885355663; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f52.google.com (mail-vw0-f52.google.com [209.85.212.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si552190iwn.5.2010.03.29.10.55.54; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.52; Received: by vws3 with SMTP id 3so5036978vws.39 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:55:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.94.72 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:55:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <925d17561003280714y30d5eb1fo19b9f97eb6902eaa@mail.gmail.com> <5BD9338A-1033-49E9-9A75-49046469DE95@gmail.com> <20100329141713.GA29026@sdf.lonestar.org> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:55:53 -0400 Received: by 10.220.121.142 with SMTP id h14mr3117480vcr.164.1269885354139; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5715b9301003291055w30fb5313p8bd52a84f7fa1e6a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/feacdf2243bf0449 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6816cbc7060130482f4394c --0016e6816cbc7060130482f4394c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Michael, I'm confused. What exactly *are* your goals? If you want to publish la .alis in lojban then it stands to reason that it will be for lojban readers. Shouldn't the typography match what the readers find easiest? I've only been studying lojban for a year or so now and seeing "Mi klama la Bast,n. I la Bab cusku "lu mi klama li'u" " confuses the crap out of me and looks ugly as sin. I know I can't speak for the whole lojban community, but I wouldn't buy such a book. What's the purpose of publishing a book that uses "beautiful" english typography that no lojbanist wants to read? I really don't like this bastardization of the common form that everybody has been using for now some time. But that's just one noobies opinion. On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Michael Everson wrote: > On 29 Mar 2010, at 15:17, Minimiscience wrote: > > > de'i li 29 pi'e 03 pi'e 2010 la'o fy. Michael Everson .fy. cusku zoi > skamyxatra. > >> To the unfocused eye, Lojban is no different from Basque in its > >> non-Indo-Europeanism. ;-) > > > > Good! Almost the entire point of Lojban and Loglan is to create a > language unlike any natural one and see what happens. > > My point was that, non-Indo-European as it is, Basque still enjoys the > richness of Latin typographic conventions. > > > Trying to make Lojban more like widely-spoken languages defeats the whole > point of attempting to isolate a Sapir-Whorf effect or whatever it is we're > supposed to be doing. > > The Sapir-Whorf hyphothesis has nothing **whatsoever** with writing. > English can be written in Latin letters, Greek letters, Runes, Verdurian, > Shavian, Deseret or IPA, and it makes no difference at all in terms of what > Sapir-Whorf is about. > > > Differences in orthography force learners to think about the language > more and, hopefully, improve the way they think in general. > > Well, as an expert in writing systems, I think that's a pretty baseless > assertion. Reading English in Deseret or Shavian does not make you think > about English differently. > > I don't mean to be grumpy about it, but that's really just nonsense. (Quite > apart from Alice.) > > Michael > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6816cbc7060130482f4394c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael, =A0I'm confused. =A0What exactly are=A0your goals? =A0I= f you want to publish la .alis in lojban then it stands to reason that it w= ill be for lojban readers. =A0Shouldn't the typography match what the r= eaders find easiest? =A0I've only been studying lojban for a year or so= now and seeing "Mi klama la Bast,n. I la Bab cusku "lu mi klama li'= u" "=A0confuses the crap out of me and looks ugly as sin. = =A0I know I can't speak for the whole lojban community, but I wouldn= 9;t buy such a book. =A0What's the purpose of publishing a book that us= es "beautiful" english typography that no lojbanist wants to read= ?

I really don't like this bastardization of the common fo= rm that everybody has been using for now some time. =A0But that's just = one noobies opinion.

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010= at 1:46 PM, Michael Everson <michael.everson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 29 Mar 2010, at 15:17,= Minimiscience wrote:

> de'i li 29 pi'e 03 pi'e 2010 la'o fy. Michael Everson = .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.
>> To the unfocused eye, Lojban is no different from Basque in its >> non-Indo-Europeanism. ;-)
>
> Good! =A0Almost the entire point of Lojban and= Loglan is to create a language unlike any natural one and see what happens= .

My point was that, non-Indo-European as it is, Basque still enjoys th= e richness of Latin typographic conventions.

> Trying to make Lojban more like widely-spoken languages defeats the wh= ole point of attempting to isolate a Sapir-Whorf effect or whatever it is w= e're supposed to be doing.

The Sapir-Whorf hyphothesis has nothing **whatsoever** with writing. = English can be written in Latin letters, Greek letters, Runes, Verdurian, S= havian, Deseret or IPA, and it makes no difference at all in terms of what = Sapir-Whorf is about.

> Differences in orthography force learners to think about the language = more and, hopefully, improve the way they think in general.

Well, as an expert in writing systems, I think that's a pretty ba= seless assertion. Reading English in Deseret or Shavian does not make you t= hink about English differently.

I don't mean to be grumpy about it, but that's really just nonsense= . (Quite apart from Alice.)

Michael

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