From 3NPCwSwcJBiEIVQIBPTDJ7FI.9LJILG87KDLLDIBDOLRMP.9LJ@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 11:24:25 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f139.google.com ([209.85.221.139]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3NPCwSwcJBiEIVQIBPTDJ7FI.9LJILG87KDLLDIBDOLRMP.9LJ@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwJdC-0000y9-4m for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:24:23 -0700 Received: by qyk4 with SMTP id 4sf18848725qyk.27 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:24:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=9ptBhJnOJQUSAklFbB+3tvLvWcZFRBwzKqKfWAcNIHw=; b=nmofZkcHcGK6tMUYRRtIF9l3ZEotvDEHeRccTmScpjESa+Y1rIXPxQHw9T424gwvIC pPmeEQvTwm1wHmge1VUn5eMfVuLLOFdFJSqD6UEkROGMuL6+fyzfKN+7BJPqiiZk8Ehf UBlPerf0nfRLWO6Q4vHNsJYbiR4N6kGI2CnCk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=y4RsfgjNV+GGlmzMEMq7y6xvWbbt1GA7JEExfymj9QD68jNL9Do8HHkjm6F5mDQzaf WPii2VE0Oxo2e9pk2L4aFlSmkxKx17Ssm+4JAqH/ZSv6KFbIY/wJFtdtqz/7wptfE5yL /RQN7dFVn2xCX3eax5hP5wxAVSRToTo5zZGFQ= Received: by 10.229.31.66 with SMTP id x2mr175261qcc.27.1269887028575; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:23:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.92.132 with SMTP id r4ls4783506qam.1.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.104.195 with SMTP id q3mr662285qao.22.1269887027097; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.131.19 with SMTP id e19mr2962690agd.6.1269885665250; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.131.19 with SMTP id e19mr2962686agd.6.1269885665175; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f173.google.com (mail-gy0-f173.google.com [209.85.160.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si202802yxe.8.2010.03.29.11.01.04; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.173; Received: by mail-gy0-f173.google.com with SMTP id 5so6252098gyd.18 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:01:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.242.9 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:01:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5715b9301003291055w30fb5313p8bd52a84f7fa1e6a@mail.gmail.com> References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <925d17561003280714y30d5eb1fo19b9f97eb6902eaa@mail.gmail.com> <5BD9338A-1033-49E9-9A75-49046469DE95@gmail.com> <20100329141713.GA29026@sdf.lonestar.org> <5715b9301003291055w30fb5313p8bd52a84f7fa1e6a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:01:02 -0400 Received: by 10.101.27.7 with SMTP id e7mr5349764anj.131.1269885663778; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: MorphemeAddict To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/387c043f0e1649cc Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636b2b50be517b20482f44b8d --001636b2b50be517b20482f44b8d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I would buy any book written in Lojban (assuming it's well translated, or that it's original text), regardless of the capitalization. But if it did use capitalization, as in the example, I'd grumble about it every time I picked up the book. We don't have enough books in Lojban to be picky about how they look. stevo On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Michael, I'm confused. What exactly *are* your goals? If you want to > publish la .alis in lojban then it stands to reason that it will be for > lojban readers. Shouldn't the typography match what the readers find > easiest? I've only been studying lojban for a year or so now and seeing "Mi > klama la Bast,n. I la Bab cusku "lu mi klama li'u" " confuses the crap out > of me and looks ugly as sin. I know I can't speak for the whole lojban > community, but I wouldn't buy such a book. What's the purpose of publishing > a book that uses "beautiful" english typography that no lojbanist wants to > read? > > I really don't like this bastardization of the common form that everybody > has been using for now some time. But that's just one noobies opinion. > > > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Michael Everson < > michael.everson@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 29 Mar 2010, at 15:17, Minimiscience wrote: >> >> > de'i li 29 pi'e 03 pi'e 2010 la'o fy. Michael Everson .fy. cusku zoi >> skamyxatra. >> >> To the unfocused eye, Lojban is no different from Basque in its >> >> non-Indo-Europeanism. ;-) >> > >> > Good! Almost the entire point of Lojban and Loglan is to create a >> language unlike any natural one and see what happens. >> >> My point was that, non-Indo-European as it is, Basque still enjoys the >> richness of Latin typographic conventions. >> >> > Trying to make Lojban more like widely-spoken languages defeats the >> whole point of attempting to isolate a Sapir-Whorf effect or whatever it is >> we're supposed to be doing. >> >> The Sapir-Whorf hyphothesis has nothing **whatsoever** with writing. >> English can be written in Latin letters, Greek letters, Runes, Verdurian, >> Shavian, Deseret or IPA, and it makes no difference at all in terms of what >> Sapir-Whorf is about. >> >> > Differences in orthography force learners to think about the language >> more and, hopefully, improve the way they think in general. >> >> Well, as an expert in writing systems, I think that's a pretty baseless >> assertion. Reading English in Deseret or Shavian does not make you think >> about English differently. >> >> I don't mean to be grumpy about it, but that's really just nonsense. >> (Quite apart from Alice.) >> >> Michael >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001636b2b50be517b20482f44b8d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would buy any book written in Lojban (assuming it's well transla= ted, or that it's original text), regardless of the capitalization. But= if it did use capitalization, as in the example, I'd grumble about it = every time I picked up the book.
=A0
We don't have enough books in Lojban to be picky about how they lo= ok.
=A0
stevo

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gma= il.com> wrote:
Michael, =A0I'm confused. = =A0What exactly are=A0your goals? =A0If you want to publish la .alis= in lojban then it stands to reason that it will be for lojban readers. =A0= Shouldn't the typography match what the readers find easiest? =A0I'= ve only been studying lojban for a year or so now and seeing "Mi klama la Bast,n. I la Bab cusku "lu mi= klama li'u" "=A0confuses the crap out of me and looks= ugly as sin. =A0I know I can't speak for the whole lojban community, b= ut I wouldn't buy such a book. =A0What's the purpose of publishing = a book that uses "beautiful" english typography that no lojbanist= wants to read?=20

I really don't like this bastardization of the common form that ev= erybody has been using for now some time. =A0But that's just one noobie= s opinion.=20


On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Michael Everson= <michael.everson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 29 Mar 2010, at 15:17, Minimiscience wrote:

> de'i li= 29 pi'e 03 pi'e 2010 la'o fy. Michael Everson .fy. cusku zoi s= kamyxatra.
>> To the unfocused eye, Lojban is no different from Ba= sque in its
>> non-Indo-Europeanism. ;-)
>
> Good! =A0Almost the entire point of Lojban and Loglan is to creat= e a language unlike any natural one and see what happens.

My p= oint was that, non-Indo-European as it is, Basque still enjoys the richness= of Latin typographic conventions.

> Trying to make Lojban more like widely-spoken languages defea= ts the whole point of attempting to isolate a Sapir-Whorf effect or whateve= r it is we're supposed to be doing.

The Sapir-Whorf hyphot= hesis has nothing **whatsoever** with writing. English can be written in La= tin letters, Greek letters, Runes, Verdurian, Shavian, Deseret or IPA, and = it makes no difference at all in terms of what Sapir-Whorf is about.

> Differences in orthography force learners to think about the = language more and, hopefully, improve the way they think in general.
Well, as an expert in writing systems, I think that's a pretty b= aseless assertion. Reading English in Deseret or Shavian does not make you = think about English differently.

I don't mean to be grumpy about it, but that's really just nons= ense. (Quite apart from Alice.)

Michael
<= /font>

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