From 3T_iwSwoJBkQy0usoinxoymsgor.iusruphgtmuumrkmxu0vy.ius@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 11:58:53 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f139.google.com ([209.85.221.139]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3T_iwSwoJBkQy0usoinxoymsgor.iusruphgtmuumrkmxu0vy.ius@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwKAf-00044U-98 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:58:52 -0700 Received: by qyk4 with SMTP id 4sf18888467qyk.27 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:58:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=EzjxNEBKw0p7GFYkWDQD90JsJUetvmLY74XD0viUous=; b=NPK70MR+SMZrH8DzjMg8T3cMEK8ft4Oemf4Gijai059QfiCCmqVra6MuTxEZ7QLLBZ bKAqKUsQVBTTOzPmCr8WRaUd8RtEXTwaqnIKsUr87nVO/dXe6I+2BLpuZFyH1F2SBrG2 A8di1d+GK+KOBBGW9ph0nv4M23MlHnCsAiPyA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=uMjMIQr3H8eplJPfzj802Ybi0I2wz8gr8wuVoGrtFQIW30JoqgrdWhpN42m+GTjLxh f3bo1hNVkqnspAV+WQHK+0c4t+1vv26nzGKV+rtNdjsb2mggJ/nJtrYIZceJp2CXbTNT ZpvDqc+0VFQFavRdCWKhCq2iJb3nzDGNI0Qfk= Received: by 10.224.0.100 with SMTP id 36mr259144qaa.29.1269889103392; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:58:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.38.138 with SMTP id b10ls5248662qae.4.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.44.95 with SMTP id z31mr671284qae.16.1269889101906; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.1.3 with SMTP id 3mr909340aga.1.1269887249755; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.1.3 with SMTP id 3mr909337aga.1.1269887249701; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f171.google.com (mail-gy0-f171.google.com [209.85.160.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si205048yxe.4.2010.03.29.11.27.28; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.171; Received: by mail-gy0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 12so20948250gyd.2 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:27:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.29.10 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:27:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <925d17561003280714y30d5eb1fo19b9f97eb6902eaa@mail.gmail.com> <5BD9338A-1033-49E9-9A75-49046469DE95@gmail.com> <702226df1003290731i3cbaeb3fs9db2d49a667273b1@mail.gmail.com> <44AE9DF1-8DD8-4134-895C-054AA27AE1EC@gmail.com> <702226df1003290810r9685560v7ef251bdfb421911@mail.gmail.com> <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <702226df1003291006o242c37a8q6bc5ea53b6e6377d@mail.gmail.com> From: Christopher Doty Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:27:08 -0700 Received: by 10.142.2.2 with SMTP id 2mr1447448wfb.75.1269887248076; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/e7e647b3d0b37b00 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502ad425390940482f4aa2b --00504502ad425390940482f4aa2b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am going to weigh in (still as a newbie) but I actually think the issue o= f typographic conventions is a pretty important one. (I'm also trying, not s= o subtly, to get the conversation back toward a discussion of what changes, i= f any, might be worthwhile, instead of debating the meanings of orthographies and typographies and the like.) I will fully admit (with some chagrin now, but I was busy at the time) that when I first started looked at Lojban, I was excited as all get-out... And then saw a text, thought, "How can people using a 'logical' language have decided that things like punctuation are illogical?" and decided it wasn't worth my time. I'm back now, because I have more time, and because I decided that Lojban, regardless of any (apparent) flaws, is worth it. I still have issues with the typography, though, and I think that the lack of things like capitalization and punctuation is going to turn off new learners like mysel= f (a trained linguist, who is very used to looking at texts in other languages), and perhaps others as well. Consider, for example, the PDF version of la .alis. In addition to everything else that is going on, there is no use of the periods to mark glottal stops, so .i becomes just i. If you are like me, and would like to look at this side-by-side with the English version, this makes it extremely difficult to match up the sentences, as was mentioned by someone previously= . I realize this might not be an issue for people who have more experience with the language, but for people who want to use the translation as a mean= s of studying and learning the language, this is a big impediment. In following this conversation, I've become somewhat partial (solely in my own head, of course) to capitalizing only the first word of a sentence (the word after .i, and probably other delimiting things like no'i), and nothing else. Thus: lu" no=92i La alis co=92a tatpi le nu zutse le rirxe korbi re=92o le mensi = gi=92e zukte fi noda i Abuboi so=92uroi sutra zgana le cukta poi le mensi cu tcidu= i Ku=92i cy vasru no pixra ja nuncasnu i Lu ji=92a ma prali sei la alis pensi= fi lo cukta poi vasru no pixra ja nuncasnu li'u "li=92u This would provide the sorts of things that folks who use Latin alphabets expect: namely, something that delineates two sentences from each other (. in the case of most scripts, .i in the case of Lojban), followed by a capital letter. For me, this makes it far easier to skim a text, as I can look for the two things that one normally looks for. Granted, this would probably mean NOT capitalizing other things, like names, but I don't think that doing so would be the best idea anyway. Chris --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00504502ad425390940482f4aa2b Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am going to weigh in (still as a newbie) but I actually think the issue o= f typographic conventions is a pretty important one. =A0(I'm also tryin= g, not so subtly, to get the conversation back toward a discussion of what = changes, if any, might be worthwhile, instead of debating the meanings of o= rthographies and typographies and the like.) =A0I will fully admit (with so= me chagrin now, but I was busy at the time) that when I first started looke= d at Lojban, I was excited as all get-out... And then saw a text, thought, = "How can people using a 'logical' language have decided that t= hings like punctuation are illogical?" and decided it wasn't worth= my time.

I'm back now, because I have more time, and because= I decided that Lojban, regardless of any (apparent) flaws, is worth it. = =A0I still have issues with the=A0typography, though, and I think that the = lack of things like capitalization and=A0punctuation=A0is going to turn off= new learners like myself (a trained linguist, who is very used to looking = at texts in other languages), and perhaps others as well.

Consider, for example, the PDF version of la .alis. =A0= In addition to everything else that is going on, there is no use of the per= iods to mark glottal stops, so .i becomes just i. =A0If you are like me, an= d would like to look at this side-by-side with the English version, this ma= kes it extremely difficult to match up the sentences, as was mentioned by s= omeone previously. =A0I realize this might not be an issue for people who h= ave more experience with the language, but for people who want to use the t= ranslation as a means of studying and learning the language, this is a big = impediment.

In following this conversation, I've become somewha= t partial (solely in my own head, of course) to capitalizing only the first= word of a sentence (the word after .i, and probably other delimiting thing= s like no'i), and nothing else. =A0Thus:

lu" no=92i La alis co=92a tatpi le nu zutse le rir= xe korbi re=92o le mensi gi=92e zukte fi noda i Abuboi so=92uroi sutra zgan= a le cukta poi le mensi cu tcidu i Ku=92i cy vasru no pixra ja nuncasnu i L= u ji=92a ma prali sei la alis pensi fi lo cukta poi vasru no pixra ja nunca= snu li'u "li=92u

This would provide the sorts of things that folks who u= se Latin alphabets expect: namely, something that=A0delineates two sentence= s from each other (. in the case of most scripts, .i in the case of Lojban)= , followed by a capital letter. =A0For me, this makes it far easier to skim= a text, as I can look for the two things that one normally looks for. =A0G= ranted, this would probably mean NOT capitalizing other things, like names,= but I don't think that doing so would be the best idea anyway.

Chris

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--00504502ad425390940482f4aa2b--