From 3vf6wSwoJBrgqsmkgafpgqekYgj.amkjmhZYlemmejcepmsnq.amk@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 12:26:39 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3vf6wSwoJBrgqsmkgafpgqekYgj.amkjmhZYlemmejcepmsnq.amk@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwKbZ-0006ej-Ul for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:26:38 -0700 Received: by vws3 with SMTP id 3sf1133671vws.16 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:26:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=sr8N+Jvy8N6rnbIO6xQcPg4K2zLCnn+eZ5Hjb9KaN0A=; b=JJuOH4d170lMzmzPBDE2hF3j0ppH/HXs95w/kZIWMB/kExIikSTSyZgw/x7hREl7IR bJUdBwdG2dpVkEskBD0aVbip5vTmhHfdcBOCoy3XPcUIXuNhWYencE1MhNIpK4MUJYEu YK1BwhX34y5fckQ8tk0BfnvebxU1/gMRhakvU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=CcUKTPkAkcwaVIgGlNWZ5xjyHJ6yzpEfXx8g0HMrWgSdk7DxZbSS3XLI2DgPNFItCv 7cOycOGgJ9p9ocbhdqibd6VZ3XFp6Q3AgCiD3j0oBbv/lfjbnnb9JNm2GZfl2Cu/OXfE GOJMp97ddjnpxyeDQS0c4p1ZtBBt9LxhKIisg= Received: by 10.220.124.227 with SMTP id v35mr483591vcr.15.1269890750077; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:25:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.68.217 with SMTP id w25ls270067vci.1.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.168.83 with SMTP id t19mr1345680vcy.10.1269890638605; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.168.83 with SMTP id t19mr1345677vcy.10.1269890638545; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f49.google.com (mail-gw0-f49.google.com [74.125.83.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si11093008vws.0.2010.03.29.12.23.57; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.49; Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20so1599073gwb.22 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:23:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.29.10 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:23:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5715b9301003291146h66475c74off6625befee8fdf5@mail.gmail.com> References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <702226df1003290731i3cbaeb3fs9db2d49a667273b1@mail.gmail.com> <44AE9DF1-8DD8-4134-895C-054AA27AE1EC@gmail.com> <702226df1003290810r9685560v7ef251bdfb421911@mail.gmail.com> <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <702226df1003291006o242c37a8q6bc5ea53b6e6377d@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003291109p6508ea18q8fd9cd68f593a70c@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003291146h66475c74off6625befee8fdf5@mail.gmail.com> From: Christopher Doty Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:23:37 -0700 Received: by 10.142.3.41 with SMTP id 41mr2105767wfc.291.1269890637058; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/fd6f18c394c0f94 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502c15353534c0482f5740b --00504502c15353534c0482f5740b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:46, Luke Bergen wrote: > It seems a little type-o-centric to say "it uses latin characters, > therefore, for some reasons or other, it should use the same typographic > standards". But this isn't quite true. Lojban, with a couple of exceptions, uses Latin characters just like other languages that use Latin characters. "G" does not, for example, represent the sound [a]. Lojban actually has a pretty clear match between the Latin alphabet and the sound that characters represent in most languages which use a Latin script (and even "non-language" scripts, like the IPA). Presumably, this was done because i= t would make Lojban much more accessible to people than simply using characters from the ASCII set, despite "problems" that it might cause (having to learn that "c" in Lojban is equivalent to English "sh," for example). What Michael seems to be proposing is exactly the same thing--Lojban conventions for punctuation and capitalization should follow what is done for other languages which use the Latin script, in order to make it more accessible to people. Now, just as languages map different sounds to different letters (within certain bounds, of course), so too do they develo= p different conventions for spacing, punctuation, etc. I agree that simply doing what English does is not the solution; likewise, it is not okay to do what French, or Swahili, or German, or Yor=F9b=E1, or any other language do= es. Lojban should have it's own standards, which while uniquely Lojban, also make allowances for the fact that everyone learning it in the foreseeable future is likely to be familiar with some language which makes use of Latin characters. I am honestly kind of surprised to find this much debate in response to the idea that something be changed. Is there actually any reason to NOT make Lojban more accessible to people, except that people who are already proficient in the language don't like it? I don't mean that sarcastically; I missed the start of the conversation--what is gained by asserting that there should be no change? Chris --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00504502c15353534c0482f5740b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:46, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:<= br>
It seems a little type-o-centric to say "it uses latin characters, the= refore, for some reasons or other, it should use the same typographic stand= ards".

But this isn't quite true. = =A0Lojban, with a couple of exceptions, uses Latin characters just like oth= er languages that use Latin characters. =A0"G" does not, for exam= ple, represent the sound [a]. =A0Lojban actually has a pretty clear match b= etween the Latin alphabet and the sound that characters represent in most l= anguages which use a Latin script (and even "non-language" script= s, like the IPA). =A0Presumably, this was done because it would make Lojban= much more accessible to people than simply using characters from the ASCII= set, despite "problems" that it might cause (having to learn tha= t "c" in Lojban is equivalent to English "sh," for exam= ple).

What Michael seems to be proposing is exactly the same = thing--Lojban conventions for punctuation and capitalization should follow = what is done for other languages which use the Latin script, in order to ma= ke it more accessible to people. =A0Now, just as languages map different so= unds to different letters (within certain bounds, of course), so too do the= y develop different conventions for spacing, punctuation, etc. =A0I agree t= hat simply doing what English does is not the solution; likewise, it is not= okay to do what French, or Swahili, or German, or Yor=F9b=E1, or any other= language does. =A0Lojban should have it's own standards, which while u= niquely Lojban, also make=A0allowances=A0for the fact that everyone learnin= g it in the foreseeable future is likely to be familiar with some language = which makes use of Latin characters.

I am honestly kind of surprised to find this much debat= e in response to the idea that something be changed. =A0Is there actually a= ny reason to NOT make Lojban more accessible to people, except that people = who are already proficient in the language don't like it? =A0I don'= t mean that sarcastically; I missed the start of the conversation--what is = gained by asserting that there should be no change?

Chris

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