From 3JwKxSwsJBiYNWMGCDGTIGPIOCKN.EQONQLDCPIQQINGITQWRU.EQO@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 12:40:49 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3JwKxSwsJBiYNWMGCDGTIGPIOCKN.EQONQLDCPIQQINGITQWRU.EQO@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwKpJ-0007jo-4D for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:40:49 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf17680378gyd.16 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:40:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=ZU1f8EVVMOIypJE9D8KQYtlU0ugO06yzc2LeqRJvsoQ=; b=MGXZrDsk10gIqR3BVDoaBC3HY71JpEIXaUMqTipRVDOxbNV3ynzoSaMvUrBS2X6iMI Htm2tG6ABmHLXGKcL3fLm0/ktgviZox28iMNHr8+ksi+yLXi8SpjyLs3ZsXHfQmxjVdO H+HIM4IrweSj1vncxhPo/KpsM56t21kzEt4hk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=WnFF+C8P2P/esksPwFjnu54XXZzvnznKK/IORueUM1eAm64I8n7zb8TxvoBAOZR0T/ Uq3gAG4YAwJAY/FWV8UkiwCfEWQnYr0bYEb7OKv6CKYTb+6fJP43gR8bSmc8M3WFeYSd BT/elW02LQD9wjqGQCRHXTexEVlExAKutRuO4= Received: by 10.101.106.32 with SMTP id i32mr104903anm.45.1269891623862; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:40:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.204.223 with SMTP id fn31ls593439ibb.1.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.146.4 with SMTP id f4mr347865ibv.13.1269891622050; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.146.4 with SMTP id f4mr347864ibv.13.1269891621967; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f50.google.com (mail-vw0-f50.google.com [209.85.212.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si589867iwn.6.2010.03.29.12.40.20; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.50; Received: by mail-vw0-f50.google.com with SMTP id 5so880316vws.9 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:40:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.94.72 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:40:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <44AE9DF1-8DD8-4134-895C-054AA27AE1EC@gmail.com> <702226df1003290810r9685560v7ef251bdfb421911@mail.gmail.com> <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <702226df1003291006o242c37a8q6bc5ea53b6e6377d@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003291109p6508ea18q8fd9cd68f593a70c@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003291146h66475c74off6625befee8fdf5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:40:20 -0400 Received: by 10.220.122.28 with SMTP id j28mr3480803vcr.47.1269891620694; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5715b9301003291240qf54568idfe2b5766aacc8c@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/2313f410e2d49ac4 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016369c8f9bf46c940482f5ae2a --0016369c8f9bf46c940482f5ae2a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > what is gained by asserting that there should be no change? Consistency with nearly everything else that has been written in lojban thu= s far? On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Christopher Doty wro= te: > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:46, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> It seems a little type-o-centric to say "it uses latin characters, >> therefore, for some reasons or other, it should use the same typographic >> standards". > > > But this isn't quite true. Lojban, with a couple of exceptions, uses Lat= in > characters just like other languages that use Latin characters. "G" does > not, for example, represent the sound [a]. Lojban actually has a pretty > clear match between the Latin alphabet and the sound that characters > represent in most languages which use a Latin script (and even > "non-language" scripts, like the IPA). Presumably, this was done because= it > would make Lojban much more accessible to people than simply using > characters from the ASCII set, despite "problems" that it might cause > (having to learn that "c" in Lojban is equivalent to English "sh," for > example). > > What Michael seems to be proposing is exactly the same thing--Lojban > conventions for punctuation and capitalization should follow what is done > for other languages which use the Latin script, in order to make it more > accessible to people. Now, just as languages map different sounds to > different letters (within certain bounds, of course), so too do they deve= lop > different conventions for spacing, punctuation, etc. I agree that simply > doing what English does is not the solution; likewise, it is not okay to = do > what French, or Swahili, or German, or Yor=F9b=E1, or any other language = does. > Lojban should have it's own standards, which while uniquely Lojban, also > make allowances for the fact that everyone learning it in the foreseeable > future is likely to be familiar with some language which makes use of Lat= in > characters. > > I am honestly kind of surprised to find this much debate in response to t= he > idea that something be changed. Is there actually any reason to NOT make > Lojban more accessible to people, except that people who are already > proficient in the language don't like it? I don't mean that sarcasticall= y; > I missed the start of the conversation--what is gained by asserting that > there should be no change? > > Chris > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016369c8f9bf46c940482f5ae2a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>=A0what is gain= ed by asserting that there should be no change?=A0

Consistency with nearly everything else that has been written in lojban = thus far?

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Christopher= Doty <suomich= ris@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:46, Luke Bergen <lukeaber= gen@gmail.com> wrote:
It seems a little type-o-centric to say "it uses latin characters, the= refore, for some reasons or other, it should use the same typographic stand= ards".

But this isn't quite = true. =A0Lojban, with a couple of exceptions, uses Latin characters just li= ke other languages that use Latin characters. =A0"G" does not, fo= r example, represent the sound [a]. =A0Lojban actually has a pretty clear m= atch between the Latin alphabet and the sound that characters represent in = most languages which use a Latin script (and even "non-language" = scripts, like the IPA). =A0Presumably, this was done because it would make = Lojban much more accessible to people than simply using characters from the= ASCII set, despite "problems" that it might cause (having to lea= rn that "c" in Lojban is equivalent to English "sh," fo= r example).

What Michael seems to be proposing is exactly the same = thing--Lojban conventions for punctuation and capitalization should follow = what is done for other languages which use the Latin script, in order to ma= ke it more accessible to people. =A0Now, just as languages map different so= unds to different letters (within certain bounds, of course), so too do the= y develop different conventions for spacing, punctuation, etc. =A0I agree t= hat simply doing what English does is not the solution; likewise, it is not= okay to do what French, or Swahili, or German, or Yor=F9b=E1, or any other= language does. =A0Lojban should have it's own standards, which while u= niquely Lojban, also make=A0allowances=A0for the fact that everyone learnin= g it in the foreseeable future is likely to be familiar with some language = which makes use of Latin characters.

I am honestly kind of surprised to find this much debat= e in response to the idea that something be changed. =A0Is there actually a= ny reason to NOT make Lojban more accessible to people, except that people = who are already proficient in the language don't like it? =A0I don'= t mean that sarcastically; I missed the start of the conversation--what is = gained by asserting that there should be no change?

Chris

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