From 3uQKxSwcJBrgcwcmlsqekYgj.amkjmhZYlemmejcepmsnq.amk@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 12:43:29 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f141.google.com ([209.85.210.141]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3uQKxSwcJBrgcwcmlsqekYgj.amkjmhZYlemmejcepmsnq.amk@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwKrp-0007pg-Sc for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:43:28 -0700 Received: by yxe5 with SMTP id 5sf653477yxe.2 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:43:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=KqMQpKZ5bw9oVI9wv/kGWW4ViOQyarnGR6Q1+cEPH10=; b=OJg9ttFWwOSQwLuuXdrQDph5ohLg7sGhsUc9jzlow3hC2mnQA3P20Wt2m9Fy8Je6hm TZyBOgFDSfc+pvhJtiojdvBg87eFoEM1XRTYWlcI/rSTSHxzjvpRfS1rr+O89iOWsODx 2Fq43x/UALNVOkEZIqzcCSAlS0rF7mqy8OG7E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=mCJAZpt9f3RIljaWQOB2icJJOVY+dpNbLyt7okGWvPJr5bxvWbZ4l6UWDJ+ye5uJj1 F2vjuvQ/g7TP9H/dJLEAkPnjbd19PR8TS4Fl/NXIU6nmfffoOnZPwNUAE2Jhm0woTUn0 THNiGPCPBIE8BP0wO6jBERei8RFlpG7K6iDTQ= Received: by 10.91.133.13 with SMTP id k13mr401702agn.57.1269891769893; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:42:49 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.6.87 with SMTP id 23ls4916075bky.0.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.137.151 with SMTP id w23mr362265bkt.28.1269891768646; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.137.151 with SMTP id w23mr362264bkt.28.1269891768576; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f177.google.com (mail-wy0-f177.google.com [74.125.82.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a12si5515517bkb.0.2010.03.29.12.42.47; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.177; Received: by wyf23 with SMTP id 23so1088702wyf.22 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:42:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.2.209 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:42:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5715b9301003291240qf54568idfe2b5766aacc8c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <702226df1003290810r9685560v7ef251bdfb421911@mail.gmail.com> <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <702226df1003291006o242c37a8q6bc5ea53b6e6377d@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003291109p6508ea18q8fd9cd68f593a70c@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003291146h66475c74off6625befee8fdf5@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003291240qf54568idfe2b5766aacc8c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:42:46 -0600 Received: by 10.216.183.17 with SMTP id p17mr3448722wem.133.1269891767153; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <702226df1003291242i53f00fd5xe5148de8e60fa190@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/73ded0007103de3e Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64c06fcaf35f00482f5b73c --0016e64c06fcaf35f00482f5b73c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > > what is gained by asserting that there should be no change? > > Consistency with nearly everything else that has been written in lojban > thus far? That sounds like a good reason to me. > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Christopher Doty = wrote: > >> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:46, Luke Bergen wrote= : >> >>> It seems a little type-o-centric to say "it uses latin characters, >>> therefore, for some reasons or other, it should use the same typographi= c >>> standards". >> >> >> But this isn't quite true. Lojban, with a couple of exceptions, uses >> Latin characters just like other languages that use Latin characters. "= G" >> does not, for example, represent the sound [a]. Lojban actually has a >> pretty clear match between the Latin alphabet and the sound that charact= ers >> represent in most languages which use a Latin script (and even >> "non-language" scripts, like the IPA). Presumably, this was done becaus= e it >> would make Lojban much more accessible to people than simply using >> characters from the ASCII set, despite "problems" that it might cause >> (having to learn that "c" in Lojban is equivalent to English "sh," for >> example). >> >> What Michael seems to be proposing is exactly the same thing--Lojban >> conventions for punctuation and capitalization should follow what is don= e >> for other languages which use the Latin script, in order to make it more >> accessible to people. Now, just as languages map different sounds to >> different letters (within certain bounds, of course), so too do they dev= elop >> different conventions for spacing, punctuation, etc. I agree that simpl= y >> doing what English does is not the solution; likewise, it is not okay to= do >> what French, or Swahili, or German, or Yor=F9b=E1, or any other language= does. >> Lojban should have it's own standards, which while uniquely Lojban, als= o >> make allowances for the fact that everyone learning it in the foreseeabl= e >> future is likely to be familiar with some language which makes use of La= tin >> characters. >> >> I am honestly kind of surprised to find this much debate in response to >> the idea that something be changed. Is there actually any reason to NOT >> make Lojban more accessible to people, except that people who are alread= y >> proficient in the language don't like it? I don't mean that sarcastical= ly; >> I missed the start of the conversation--what is gained by asserting that >> there should be no change? >> >> Chris >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e64c06fcaf35f00482f5b73c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gma= il.com> wrote:
>=A0what is gained by asserting that there = should be no change?=A0

Consistency with nearly everything else that has been = written in lojban thus far?
=A0
That sounds like a good reason to me.
=A0
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Christopher Dot= y <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:46, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com= > wrote:
It seems a little type-o-centric= to say "it uses latin characters, therefore, for some reasons or othe= r, it should use the same typographic standards".

But this isn't quite true. =A0Lojban, with a couple of exceptions,= uses Latin characters just like other languages that use Latin characters.= =A0"G" does not, for example, represent the sound [a]. =A0Lojban= actually has a pretty clear match between the Latin alphabet and the sound= that characters represent in most languages which use a Latin script (and = even "non-language" scripts, like the IPA). =A0Presumably, this w= as done because it would make Lojban much more accessible to people than si= mply using characters from the ASCII set, despite "problems" that= it might cause (having to learn that "c" in Lojban is equivalent= to English "sh," for example).

What Michael seems to be proposing is exactly the same thing--Lojban c= onventions for punctuation and capitalization should follow what is done fo= r other languages which use the Latin script, in order to make it more acce= ssible to people. =A0Now, just as languages map different sounds to differe= nt letters (within certain bounds, of course), so too do they develop diffe= rent conventions for spacing, punctuation, etc. =A0I agree that simply doin= g what English does is not the solution; likewise, it is not okay to do wha= t French, or Swahili, or German, or Yor=F9b=E1, or any other language does.= =A0Lojban should have it's own standards, which while uniquely Lojban,= also make=A0allowances=A0for the fact that everyone learning it in the for= eseeable future is likely to be familiar with some language which makes use= of Latin characters.

I am honestly kind of surprised to find this much debate in response t= o the idea that something be changed. =A0Is there actually any reason to NO= T make Lojban more accessible to people, except that people who are already= proficient in the language don't like it? =A0I don't mean that sar= castically; I missed the start of the conversation--what is gained by asser= ting that there should be no change?

Chris

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
=

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