From 3wwqxSwcJBsouEu43A8w2qy1.s4214zrq3w44w1uw74A58.s42@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 13:17:34 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f198.google.com ([209.85.217.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3wwqxSwcJBsouEu43A8w2qy1.s4214zrq3w44w1uw74A58.s42@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwLOq-0001mJ-UP for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:17:34 -0700 Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22sf18842981gxk.4 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:17:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=RY4CFztLHZ7EGFIJjhMG5fVI1yFAKgAKEK9LOzK+4J0=; b=Mdz4LUhjNDas0ZqfRrDcOPBzt5KvgxzenU+UD7iFGfrDT2zey+3LvlcbJFjMH7PMK+ Nbxa1EsBMP78oD1nBjEZ9KS1sPgRZzGRg9rQ/FwXMoGPI2FEjTKVzgxN2c6M7F5DHha0 ZfaFGHSy9RL7ax4ZuHbdksWplVHAK+l+W2M40= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=gs+wIODw1vmNAX578vO/2d42t2fI33l2emTQ9jBjbSF+aPpCePzJVXYO0NB5836ohm Vtbyia6jn7UkYMu2mx8l+5MbMdJwQpyXM4YCt/06qMv7RAIJA75MAU0qaL4tBGd+00pm JVIgOiDQSGZQae8UgrARVSesW/ahPV8hOdT20= Received: by 10.91.91.9 with SMTP id t9mr410978agl.20.1269893827427; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:17:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.213.2.77 with SMTP id 13ls1302809ebi.0.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.79.65 with SMTP id o1mr29583ebk.18.1269893825582; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.79.65 with SMTP id o1mr29582ebk.18.1269893825535; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f211.google.com (mail-ew0-f211.google.com [209.85.219.211]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 12si242417ewy.6.2010.03.29.13.17.04; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.219.211 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.219.211; Received: by ewy3 with SMTP id 3so597785ewy.26 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:17:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.2.209 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:17:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <702226df1003290810r9685560v7ef251bdfb421911@mail.gmail.com> <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <702226df1003291006o242c37a8q6bc5ea53b6e6377d@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003291109p6508ea18q8fd9cd68f593a70c@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003291146h66475c74off6625befee8fdf5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:17:03 -0600 Received: by 10.216.168.9 with SMTP id j9mr105432wel.152.1269893824073; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <702226df1003291317k3fe81acbw61ac85133c4537f3@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.219.211 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/e61b775787c14a8d Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163683351c494f090482f63207 --00163683351c494f090482f63207 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Michael Everson wrote: > On 29 Mar 2010, at 20:23, Christopher Doty wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:46, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > It seems a little type-o-centric to say "it uses latin characters, > therefore, for some reasons or other, it should use the same typographic > standards". > > > > But this isn't quite true. Lojban, with a couple of exceptions, uses > Latin characters just like other languages that use Latin characters. "G" > does not, for example, represent the sound [a]. > > Noooooooo, that's *orthography*. > > > What Michael seems to be proposing is exactly the same thing--Lojban > conventions for punctuation and capitalization should follow what is done > for other languages which use the Latin script, in order to make it more > accessible to people. > > No, Michael is saying that he's going to set *this* Victorian book in the > same style and to the same typographic standard as all his other editions of > *this* Victorian book. > > I have no idea what if any impact this will have on the users of Lojban. As > such my project is, in addition to be part of a Carrollian collection, part > of a dialogue with the LoCCan project. > > > I am honestly kind of surprised to find this much debate in response to > the idea that something be changed. > > I have not proposed that the standard orthography, or standardly sanctioned > options, be reviewed or revised. I don't necessarily oppose such a > discussion, but I have not made a request for such a discussion to take > place. > > > Is there actually any reason to NOT make Lojban more accessible to > people, except that people who are already proficient in the language don't > like it? > > Now, there's a good point. > > > I don't mean that sarcastically; I missed the start of the > conversation--what is gained by asserting that there should be no change? > > Stability, and impenetrability. > I agree with the stability bit, but I don't agree that Lojban as written in the standard convention is impenetrable. A bit difficult at first, and more so with Jorge's consistent lack of denpabu, but not impenetrable. (I would like to state that in my own experience, the difficulties I had when first reading Lojban have since been reversed- that is, what once difficult to read due to lack of that which I am used to seeing in English text is now difficult if those elements *are* there- with the exception of white space, and not counting my difficulty in reading {lonu lojbo bacru cu na ponse lo denpabu} ("Lojban without the {.}").) > > :-) > > Michael > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00163683351c494f090482f63207 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Michael Everson= <michael= .everson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 29 Mar 2010, at 20:23, Christopher Doty wrote:

= > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:46, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> It seems a l= ittle type-o-centric to say "it uses latin characters, therefore, for = some reasons or other, it should use the same typographic standards".<= br> >
> But this isn't quite true. =A0Lojban, with a couple of exc= eptions, uses Latin characters just like other languages that use Latin cha= racters. =A0"G" does not, for example, represent the sound [a].
Noooooooo, that's *orthography*.

> What Michael seems to be proposing is exactly th= e same thing--Lojban conventions for punctuation and capitalization should = follow what is done for other languages which use the Latin script, in orde= r to make it more accessible to people.

No, Michael is saying that he's going to set *this* Victorian= book in the same style and to the same typographic standard as all his oth= er editions of *this* Victorian book.

I have no idea what if any imp= act this will have on the users of Lojban. As such my project is, in additi= on to be part of a Carrollian collection, part of a dialogue with the LoCCa= n project.

> I am honestly kind of surprised to find this muc= h debate in response to the idea that something be changed.

I = have not proposed that the standard orthography, or standardly sanctioned o= ptions, be reviewed or revised. I don't necessarily oppose such a discu= ssion, but I have not made a request for such a discussion to take place.

> Is there actually any reason to NOT make Lojban = more accessible to people, except that people who are already proficient in= the language don't like it?

Now, there's a good point= .

> I don't mean that sarcastically; I missed th= e start of the conversation--what is gained by asserting that there should = be no change?

Stability, and impenetrability.
=A0
I agree with the stability bit, but I don't agree that Lojban as w= ritten in the standard convention is impenetrable.
=A0
A bit difficult at first, and more so with Jorge's consistent lack= of denpabu, but not impenetrable. (I would like to state that in my own ex= perience, the difficulties=A0I=A0had when first reading Lojban have since b= een reversed- that is, what once difficult to read due to lack of that whic= h I am used to seeing in English text is now difficult if those elements *a= re* there- with the exception of white space, and not counting my difficult= y in reading {lonu lojbo bacru cu na ponse lo denpabu} ("Lojban withou= t the {.}").)
=A0

:-)

Michael

--
You received this message because you are subsc= ribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this gro= up, send email to lojban@googleg= roups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For= more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?h= l=3Den.




--
mu'= o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu=

--
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