From 3SxCxSwsJBlgBKA4014H64D6C08B.2ECBE910D6EE6B46HEKFI.2EC@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 13:41:03 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3SxCxSwsJBlgBKA4014H64D6C08B.2ECBE910D6EE6B46HEKFI.2EC@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwLla-0003Nu-LT for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:41:02 -0700 Received: by mail-yw0-f160.google.com with SMTP id 32sf8476846ywh.28 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:40:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=oRMwrsfHyNa6u5UrV1lc80jya8iqR0o6wrYixeL8+EU=; b=KSWTYS9aZ4dGMTaH/R6TwTLP+FlfvIFBkg8jP+eXalksz2IyX3s9K7EaDQxdrxbzCA UIuS4MVRVGphUrnGMR6yGvivMeESw2uzzQFaJrfFyetWJa88bqzluCE6xeMvQlcBDQj4 7nDAkipYPpi1rCNAjz+2wwyvwlp/+FkKXTNKg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=XDqC16+0Nv9bwnSj0U6+m/nrBH4UvzkgbKtUreV/UlwKa7SOts1+ZY6XG5uixzO+P+ spWpup/i12FUPMHbnXkhpCiflAuzB2vulpCWMFVBjIptNRfNW+Ap/Qm2fs4294x29zAU UXdnVArVmOiuWRr4lt/ja869jUXbEIweVNQ7w= Received: by 10.151.115.16 with SMTP id s16mr312178ybm.8.1269895243133; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:40:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.122.100 with SMTP id k36ls548633ibr.0.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.162.14 with SMTP id t14mr347710ibx.24.1269895241933; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.162.14 with SMTP id t14mr347709ibx.24.1269895241879; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f51.google.com (mail-vw0-f51.google.com [209.85.212.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si611443iwn.8.2010.03.29.13.40.40; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.51; Received: by vws19 with SMTP id 19so745826vws.24 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:40:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.94.72 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:40:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <702226df1003291109p6508ea18q8fd9cd68f593a70c@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003291146h66475c74off6625befee8fdf5@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003291319s63636a59t68668f5a79e79d4b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:40:40 -0400 Received: by 10.220.121.136 with SMTP id h8mr3173819vcr.193.1269895240229; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5715b9301003291340y2fc289a4l1783dd45b77aed55@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/db7dca3f1fe28a76 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e68eeeddb2254b0482f68632 --0016e68eeeddb2254b0482f68632 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I don't know why it only just now occurred to me to check the CLL but I found the following: "Capital letters are used only to represent non-standard stress, which can appear only in the representation of Lojbanized names." So, at the very least, could we treat the possibility of publishing alis with this different typography with the same delicacy/officialness as we would any other thing that deviates from the CLL? On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 4:24 PM, Christopher Doty wrote: > Yes, I realize they are not (exactly) the same thing, but "orthography," as > commonly understood, is not devoid of typographic conventions; those are > _part_ of an orthography, at least as linguists use it--when one says that > they developed an orthography for a previously-unwritten language, no one > would assume that they had figured out how to spell things, but not bothered > with how to actually write things down. > > And I did check the definitions, from several places, and I see nothing > that contradicts anything I said, nor anything anyone else said. I meant > what I said before, that the line is, apparently, drawn at different places > for others than it is for me. > > > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 13:19, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Christopher Doty wrote: >> >>> Wow, I guess I completely missed the point of this conversation and what >>> Michael was saying--which seems to be that he's going to do this however he >>> wants, never mind what anyone says, instead of trying to actually think >>> about this and present a solution that could be adopted by people in the >>> future. Is that a correct assessment? >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 13:03, Michael Everson < >>> michael.everson@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Noooooooo, that's *orthography*. >>> >>> >>> I tried not to get involved in this, but.... I'm not sure why you're >>> drawing the line here, and saying that "G/a" is orthography and other >>> things, like capitalization, not. As far as I am concerned, Lojban >>> orthography/typography/typesetting conventions/etc. are basically half >>> done--the actual spelling of individual words is there, but the >>> clause/sentence/paragraph/quotation stuff is missing. >>> >> >> Orthography and typography are not the same thing. Check the definitions. >> I posted them in this list a few missives ago. >> >> >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e68eeeddb2254b0482f68632 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know why it only just now occurred to me to check the CLL but I= found the following:

So, at the very least, could we treat the=A0possibility= =A0of publishing alis with this different typography with the same delicacy= /officialness as we would any other thing that deviates from the CLL?

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 4:24 PM, Christopher= Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, I realize they are not (exactly) the same thing, but "orthography= ," as commonly understood, is not devoid of typographic conventions; t= hose are _part_ of an orthography, at least as linguists use it--when one s= ays that they developed an orthography for a previously-unwritten language,= no one would assume that they had figured out how to spell things, but not= bothered with how to actually write things down.

And I did check the definitions, from several places, and I = see nothing that contradicts anything I said, nor anything anyone else said= . =A0I meant what I said before, that the line is, apparently, drawn at dif= ferent places for others than it is for me.


On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 13:19, Jonathan Jone= s <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 2:1= 5 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
Wow, I guess I completely missed the = point of this conversation and what Michael was saying--which seems to be t= hat he's going to do this however he wants, never mind what anyone says= , instead of trying to actually think about this and present a solution tha= t could be adopted by people in the future. =A0Is that a correct assessment= ?

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 13:03, Michael Everson <= span dir=3D"ltr"><michael.everson@gmail.com> wrote:=20
Noooooooo, that's *orthography*.<= /blockquote>

I tried not to get involved in this, but.... =A0I'm not sure why y= ou're drawing the line here, and saying that "G/a" is orthogr= aphy and other things, like capitalization, not. =A0As far as I am concerne= d, Lojban orthography/typography/typesetting conventions/etc. are basically= half done--the actual spelling of individual words is there, but the claus= e/sentence/paragraph/quotation stuff is missing.
=A0
Orthography and typography are not the same thing. Check t= he definitions. I posted them in this list a few missives ago.
=A0

Chris=A0

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--
= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe d= enpa bu

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