From 3_h2xSwoJBhk88AAzB07zH5Bz7A.1DBAD80zC5DD5A35GDJEH.1DB@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 14:39:38 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3_h2xSwoJBhk88AAzB07zH5Bz7A.1DBAD80zC5DD5A35GDJEH.1DB@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwMgG-0006jS-Bo for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:39:37 -0700 Received: by vws3 with SMTP id 3sf1481980vws.16 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:39:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yQtLrhv1ZZc03PD4v9eovWfIXiOBC/54T+XcfCnz5WA=; b=DqPYTFVkcKJ9R7F0XYIH++UdyCMqiGmBT5P967w4IrR/TqADhQJu6cvhQrZRtfbhHv gkKk7gnEVngLVtMUcKWPBEA/+2sClrA5/2qXycfwUmScpP86eSmfMwthT/QivLxIsmP4 zRiFRKeBUEM85xIVN47JgOSC3cT2aUsfFG48s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=AqA7YDxSvoGLiiJViU8WQjNbNUvDwwxsyV4Dp4BZrI7mwztLb9aLDq1i2mJWZYEjyU naTt4xj2PLZNiL3MwUrDxUsyJM1ZO2j8onrgyssW8CLg6ZL+mF6C10Wh8mh2kJ2A5ee0 GIZ+x2PCo88BMZTyErEly1/GY9XvMrBFoSmZk= Received: by 10.220.47.158 with SMTP id n30mr517019vcf.17.1269898750094; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:39:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.79.3 with SMTP id n3ls1664087vck.3.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.168.71 with SMTP id t7mr1315671vcy.9.1269898748191; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.168.71 with SMTP id t7mr1315670vcy.9.1269898748171; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.144]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si11389376vws.0.2010.03.29.14.39.07; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.92.144 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.92.144; Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so1833148qwf.18 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:39:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.86.12 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:39:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <585619.83565.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <925d17561003280714y30d5eb1fo19b9f97eb6902eaa@mail.gmail.com> <5BD9338A-1033-49E9-9A75-49046469DE95@gmail.com> <201003290855.46019.phma@phma.optus.nu> <925d17561003290812m4ed36820rf39978da50f7cbd@mail.gmail.com> <664037.78661.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <925d17561003291250w793cd0f7ld8bc442ade3e51db@mail.gmail.com> <585619.83565.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:39:00 -0300 Received: by 10.229.235.193 with SMTP id kh1mr3638438qcb.77.1269898740963; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17561003291439g54bccb74va58f7d92d3c0a55b@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.92.144 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/8749d430922ee15f Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 6:14 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > If it is really true that the language has degenerated to the point that = 'lo' and 'le' are merged as one, It hasn't, and I didn't say it had. I said I would replace all instances of "le" by "lo". You said that would be a degradation, while replacing all instances of "lo" by "le" might be an improvement. I just don't see how ending up with only "le" could be an improvement while ending up with only "lo" would be a degradation. It seems to me that the final result would be identical. > the replacing one by the other is indeed pointless. =A0And, if it is true= 'le nu' was regularly used improperly, the replacing it in most places by = lo might be some improvement. Yes, "nu", "ka", "du'u", indeed all NUs, were used practically exclusively with "le", just look at any oldish text (say more than five years). >=A0Unfortunately, that move does mean that we would go from something we h= as some idea about ('le nu') even if it did not strictly apply, to one we h= ave no clear idea about at all ('lo nu' or 'lo' anything, for that matter). Well, speaking for myself, I have a more clear idea about "lo" than about "= le": "lo" converts a selbri into a sumti. Nothing else. "le" also converts a selbri into a sumti, but it does something else that is hard to pinpoint exactly. It adds a notion of specificity or definiteness. Of course I have some intuitions about what that means, but trying to specify exactly what it means is hard, as anyone whose native language does not have definite articles finds out when learning one that does. >=A0Btw, I hope the first protasis is not true, that in the proliferation o= f picky details to fix earlier goofs, we have lost one of the big distincti= ons that was one of the things done right from almost the beginning. "le" is still +specific, if that's what you mean. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.