From 3jiyxSwgJBrcdbq.lobkdjXfi.ZljilgYXkdlldibdolrmp.Zlj@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 15:41:51 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f141.google.com ([209.85.210.141]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3jiyxSwgJBrcdbq.lobkdjXfi.ZljilgYXkdlldibdolrmp.Zlj@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwNeP-00022N-IY for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:41:50 -0700 Received: by yxe5 with SMTP id 5sf805407yxe.2 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:41:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=MUu++n/+HLWnBg7KSALNbVpIVcwvE5M0+L3Pbphqc0g=; b=DxKX8QR6TMh5WiOfF5AQHLCFw+DzJp41UXBFVXTpPXckMSKBuu7tkeKIX8ZhKk4mpj mHQDkGI0nTd9hDD6NZDA1vMX4tz3rswQnmLZQSUNjMZViL0Ok+x9TyszKQuyzk04frjy MvJZnttTw+dLzKh6UU3sTVz3RZTvlv5h7Wgr8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=pcSkxq+sxEMqL2Fl73dswrWBOI73oevd+Dzso4yT6hU0gQTQsl6aE6P8KNHuQ7xkQt RxVaYbW7NcXkQO9nmDGFOj3Um6hw+vCllwpJE1wh/tIgaR08Xul7W3bkA5Savzs+PCTy J7QLzo7QJJ9nKg60Pyix12VV9AVYUYgDN1Q9o= Received: by 10.151.32.2 with SMTP id k2mr71376ybj.88.1269902478096; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:41:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.28.1 with SMTP id k1ls1959845ibc.3.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.176.11 with SMTP id bc11mr371677ibb.12.1269902476650; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.176.11 with SMTP id bc11mr371676ibb.12.1269902476606; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f52.google.com (mail-pw0-f52.google.com [209.85.160.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si633480iwn.11.2010.03.29.15.41.15; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.52; Received: by mail-pw0-f52.google.com with SMTP id 9so7939423pwj.39 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:41:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.109.10 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:40:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <702226df1003290711v11a9e957h537d99b637f40414@mail.gmail.com> <20100329143528.GA3085@sdf.lonestar.org> <702226df1003290953j22b0fc4dg3e9ffc1460b88882@mail.gmail.com> <20100329210845.GB24462@sdf.lonestar.org> From: Oren Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 06:40:55 +0800 Received: by 10.142.121.8 with SMTP id t8mr1339288wfc.273.1269902475215; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <27513e551003291540l6e1b9ba8nde1ed8fac23e41e4@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: Lojban: You're Doing it Worng (was: Re: [lojban] la .alis.) To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/ae71ea92dbbfd5b1 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/6ab34e2f390ef39a Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e90761ef44420482f8352b --001636e90761ef44420482f8352b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I also agree that it makes more sense to ditch cultural gismu, since: 1) You'll never be able to have a 'complete set;' there will always be unequal representation 2) You'll never be able to find objective definitions for these cultures/languages/nations/whatever ...it just seems more sensible to me to make them fi'uvla or even just standardized cmene, otherwise you're diluting gismu space with unclear and unmaintainable elements. We just need to fill in the blanks: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cultural+fu'ivla co'o mi'e korbi On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 05:19, Christopher Doty wrote: > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 14:08, Minimiscience wrote: > > I think that only those cultures that are directly relevant to Lojban >> should >> have {gismu}, i.e., Lojban itself ({lojbo}) and the six source languages >> ({glico}, {jungo}, {rusko}, {spano}, {xindo}, & {xrabo}). The {gismu} for >> the >> continents can also stay, but I don't think they really count as cultural >> {gismu} in the first place. The remaining cultural {gismu} should be >> deprecated and/or removed and their {rafsi} freed up. >> > > If this were done (which I actually think is not a bad idea), though, one > would need to change the definition of these terms, as they're being > included based on language, not culture--the gismu ought to be something > like "reflects the English language" and not "culture," or else you've lost > any sense of cultural neutrality. > > Although, now that I think about it, I'm not sure how useful a term like > "xindo" is if we're being neutral--what's Chinese? Is Tibet? Or people who > speak a non-Tibeto-Burman language and live way in the western part of China > and don't speak Mandarin? > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001636e90761ef44420482f8352b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I also agree that it makes more sense to ditch cultural gi= smu, since:

1) You'll never be able to have a 'c= omplete set;' there will always be unequal representation
2) = You'll never be able to find=A0objective definitions for these cultures= /languages/nations/whatever

...it just seems more sensible to me to make them fi= 9;uvla or even just standardized cmene,
otherwise you're=A0di= luting gismu space with unclear and unmaintainable elements.
=A0<= /div>
We just need to fill in the blanks:=A0http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cultural+fu'ivla=

co'o mi'e korbi

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 05:19, Christopher = Doty <suomichr= is@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 1= 4:08, Minimiscience <minimiscience@gmail.com> wrote:
I think that only those cultures that are directly relevant to Lojban shoul= d
have {gismu}, i.e., Lojban itself ({lojbo}) and the six source languages ({glico}, {jungo}, {rusko}, {spano}, {xindo}, & {xrabo}). =A0The {gismu= } for the
continents can also stay, but I don't think they really count as cultur= al
{gismu} in the first place. =A0The remaining cultural {gismu} should be
deprecated and/or removed and their {rafsi} freed up.

If this were done (which= I actually think is not a bad idea), though, one would need to change the = definition of these terms, as they're being included based on language,= not culture--the gismu ought to be something like "reflects the Engli= sh language" and not "culture," or else you've lost any = sense of cultural neutrality.

Although, now that I think about it, I'm not sure h= ow useful a term like "xindo" is if we're being neutral--what= 's Chinese? =A0Is Tibet? =A0Or people who speak a non-Tibeto-Burman lan= guage and live way in the western part of China and don't speak Mandari= n?

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